What to do with WVO?

[Number21]

Hello everyone. I own a boat shop, recently we moved into a giant old fruit packing plant for a shop. I just got a $350 electric bill and I don't even have heat yet! We are burning around 3500 KWH per month. And it will go up. I want to set up a hydronic heat system, we have several odd little rooms that I want to heat scattered all around the building.

I've come across a source of lightly filtered WVO for $0.75 per gallon. I'd like to use this as fuel in the shop. Question is, am I better off simply burning this stuff in a boiler, or should I try to come up with a cogeneration setup?

Doing some very rough math, I'm thinking if I had a generator running from this stuff, I might get 10 KWH per gallon. That would be 7.5 cents per KWH, about 3 cents less than my utility - and free heat! Does that sound doable? Of course that does not count engine maintenance, or filtering of the oil. It wouldn't have to be a complicated grid tied sort of thing - I can easily move my lighting circuits to a generator, and it's no problem for me to turn on 10+KW of lights if I want some heat.

Or do you think that would be too much of a headache? Is it going to need constant maintenance to run 12 hours a day? I work on engines all day so a little tinkering is not a big deal, but I don't need another job. What engine should I be looking at? I know the choices are a bit limited by the EPA. I think I've seen some of the larger Chinese-type diesel engines on ebay recently.

If not, is there a sub $5000 commercially available boiler that will run on WVO?

[glort]

You're paying 10C a KWH and your complaining??? Really?
Most people here in oz pay 17C upwards.  I think you are on a real good thing at that rate.  Wouldn't be a lot of businesses here doing the sort of thing you are or in a factory type setup that would get away with that small of a bill.

At 10C a KWH, I can't really see making your own power being remotely worthwhile especially if you are buying the fuel.  

IF you did want to do it, there are many options but the one I'd go for is an Induction motor generator setup.  You over spin a 3 Phase motor with the Diesel and with the addition of some capacitors and a solar inverter, you can safely back feed into the grid any extra power you might make to offset your consumption when the engine is not running such as at night.

You could get a 5 Kw electric motor and a 10 HP diesel and easily make 4 KW. Of course you can upscale from there to whatever you want.  With a water cooled engine you could use the heat from the coolant and maybe the exhaust.
The experienced boffins here have researched this and can give you more detailed info. From what I have read, the better idea is to plan on making heat and use the power as a Bonus.

Given you have a boat shop and probably come into contact with a lot of old Diesel engines, You could just re ring and bearing an old engine if needed and use that.  IF you go with a solar Inverter to connect to the mains, You rectify that to DC and frequency isn't important neither is a governor on the engine because the load will be constant.  Just set the RPM to the voltage you want going into the inverter  and that's it.  The load will be the same on the engine no matter what you are actually pulling in the shop.

This is a vid I did of a similar setup I was playing with and testing the other week.  It's pretty easy to set up as you can see and with a couple of switches and breakers it would be all you needed.

Of course whenever you ask about things like this you are going to get the predictable over zealous warnings about insurance, safety etc so if this is something that would cause you to loose sleep at night, You may want to consider that first.  From what I understand, It's virtually impossible to comply with all the requirements in the US so to save you time, you may want to first decide if following the letter of the law is something that you have to do or if you think you can construct something that you are happy to run on your own responsibility.  

One other thing you could do with a setup like this is use a Normal generator and just rectify the power and feed it into a solar Inverter.  Maybe it will help pacify the authorities if you are concerned and at least the safety zealots.

If you just want heat, You can always knock up a burner like this one I made.  Costs nothing and will supply enough heat to warm a factory.  You could run that on any oil  you could get your hands on and it would only need filtering through  any old bit of cloth material you have. As long as there are no chunks or bits, your good to burn.

[Number21]

You're paying 10C a KWH and your complaining??? Really?

At 10C a KWH, I can't really see making your own power being remotely worthwhile especially if you are buying the fuel.

Well, I have to buy the fuel for heat either way, question is does it make more sense to burn in an engine vs a boiler? I kind of feel like if I straight burn it I'm just losing the electricity I could make. I looked up the bill for the same period in my old shop last year, it was $47. We went from a highly efficient recently built 2500sq ft to a 100 year old uninsulated 9000sq ft so I've got to pinch every penny I can. We work on outboards (mostly vintage 2 strokes) so we do not do diesels, or have much WMO for that matter.

As far as it being a little bit "unapproved", I understand that and I'm not afraid of it from an engine, but I don't think I would risk building my own burner. I think I can save money - and red tape - by not connecting to the grid at all, simply install a transfer switch on my lighting circuits and run only the lights from the generator. Then I can use a cheap gen head, the lights aren't very picky on power requirements. Just like the fuel I'm going to have to spend money on some sort of heat system either way.

The place is already being rewired as the original 1910 wiring isn't quite up to spec. I'm being really picky about keeping all the lighting circuits separate, and I want to setup a transfer switch and get a backup generator anyway.

[mike90045]

or mix/thin it with some diesel and use in one of the air blast diesel/kero industrial heaters that look like a torpedo and sound like a jet engine

[BruceM]

Kiss your health (or your workers) goodbye if you're breathing unvented  fumes all day, 40+ hrs a week. 

Your best money spent would be some sort of insulation, if even just reflective.  Partitioning the workspace so that not all is heated to comfortable working temps might also help.  A heat exchanger that brought in fresh air to your main workspace and exhausted the waste (warmed) air to your secondary (storage) areas would be good for productivity and health.  Evap cooling for summer is great if your climate will allow it, as it provides massive fresh air handling that can be used dry on lower blower power when temperatures are more moderate.

At your bargain power rate, the cost break for managing your own CHP plant will be thin at best.

[LowGear]

I just had this great idea.  Rent a giant fork lift and push all the rooms together and enjoy the synergy of the their collective warmth all the way to the bank. 

I might ask why the warehouse was empty for you to rent or purchase.  What unyielding expense could have driven the last business(s) away?  Hmmmmm, I'm still wondering.

The first defense against energy expenses is conservation.  And conservation is usually a pay once program where heat generation just keeps on giving - money to the fuel supplier.

I'll bet if we needed heat in Hawaii at 44 cents a KWH we'd quickly learn how to close the windows. 

Casey

[Number21]

Kiss your health (or your workers) goodbye if you're breathing unvented  fumes all day, 40+ hrs a week.  

As I said above, I will be building a hydronic heating system either way. The only question is what will burn the oil to heat the water. There will be a sizeable investment either way, with a straight burning boiler I see no return on that ever, with a cogen system I see it making at least some free electricity. Is that incorrect? I'm not looking to retire on my power production profits, just cut down the bill a bit. I think just one year's worth of power bills would buy a cheap cogeneration system. We have several insulated rooms that I will be heating, but to heat or insulate the main area simply is not possible. It is MASSIVE. The ceiling alone is 50 feet high.

I might ask why the warehouse was empty for you to rent or purchase.  What unyielding expense could have driven the last business(s) away?  Hmmmmm, I'm still wondering.

He was a piece of trash that didn't pay the rent so he got kicked out. We had to have him arrested after he broke back in...

[glort]

Sounds like what I suggested would be suitable. All you need is a water cooled ( preferably)  Diesel engine, a 3 phase Motor and a Solar inverter.  Size them to what your needs and or budget allows.  If you can go say $3K on the power setup ( allowing some for the heating side) you should be able to generate a significant amount of power.
Alternately there are plenty of large used generators on fleabay most of the time so you could run one of them on oil and have the transfer switch as you suggested.

If you set the filtering system up right you wouldn't have o do more than about 10 min a week maintenance on it.

Any mechanically injected gen set will do fine on veg.

[Number21]

Alternately there are plenty of large used generators on fleabay most of the time so you could run one of them on oil and have the transfer switch as you suggested.

Yeah, I think I'll keep an eye out on craigslist and see if I can find any good deals. Efficiency isn't terribly important since I'm trying to create heat. I'd love an old listeroid, it would seem right at home in this old building, but I don't think one would be big enough.

As of now I have eight 1500w space heaters scattered around...I haven't got the bill for that yet.

[Mad_Labs]

Where are you located?

Just a thought, if you are doing hydronic heating anyway, look into solar thermal collectors. I have put together a few systems around where I live in CA. One installation in particular works very well, they went from burning 2 cords of wood a year to around a 1/2 cord. The addition they put on was designed around the system and they hyper-insulated as well.

Me, I have a hot tub that is primarily heated with solar thermal. Love it.

Jonathan

[oiler]

I would burn it in a boiler. You get 90% or more efficiency and very little mantenance. I have run one of these for three years now with no problems and only one annual cleaning.....

http://www.rmg-rapsol.de/resources/C1+bedienung_englisch.pdf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7hx2OvoAXk

[LowGear]

Free energy really isn't an option.  More appropriate forms of energy are.  I suggest you look to the most efficient form of energy for your application.  Electricity vs. Heat.  I'm reading in this thread as well as most others that if you're paying only 10 cents a KWH you're just kidding yourself about getting your electricity cheaper flat out without accounting for all the front end investment much more the maintenance besides fuel cost.

I've seen a couple of WVO boiler threads that sounded pretty good and without the persistent challenges that an internal combustion engine engine represent.

If you're wanting another interesting hobby then lets start talking sound suppression and get on with the rest of the WVO to electricity installation.

Casey

[glort]

Some years ago a few people here did some rather well thought out calcs  when the average price of power was 10C KWH and it was repeatedly determined that at that rate, even with free fuel, the investment and running costs were uncompetitive.  Unfortunately over the last few years, that cost of that breakeven has been met pretty much everywhere and well and truly exceeded in other places.

Much the same as solar only in reverse. When the Gubbermint introduce a Green bandwagon subsidy scheme, the guaranteed rate for millions of people was 60c KWH. Of course people leapt on that initiative like a fat kid on a cup cake. Once the gubbermint worked out how much it was costing them, the scheme was phased out and now you are lucky if you can get 6C a kwh for any solar power you generate.  Of course there are now green save the planet BS laws that mandate you HAVE to have an amount of panels on any new house.  They charge you 15C+ but only give you back 6 on what you generate.
If I ever build a new house, there will definitely be a bit of rewiring of the circuitry the solar inverter goes to.

I'm thinking as the OP seems pretty keen to do something for heat, one way or the other, the best investment of time may be to find some waste oil for free.
Seems the biggest savings from everything else are going to be in the cost of fuel so if it could be procured at the right price, it would make a big difference to the viability of this project especially given it's so thin to start with given the price of power.

If a good source of Veg can be sourced, going with an engine may be the best way to burn it.  If WMO can be found, may be better to go with a heater.
Here in oz there seems a glut of veg. People on forums are offering it to people because they are getting too much and  it's not hard to source at all.  A lot of this seems to come from people being sick of the cowboy belligerent collectors who go on like they own the world when most seem to be lucky to have an IQ in the double Digits.

I went to my supplier today and they had none.  They promised me 4000L next week though.  I said 1000 would be enough thanks all the same! :0)
I sure wish there was a way I could over generate power and get paid for it. Fuel would just be a non issue.

I would not think getting WMO would be that hard to get or something like tranny fluid.  Mechanics and wrecking yards get loads and few do anything with it and I'm sure a slab of beer now and then would be sufficient return to take over whom ever they are giving it to now. 

[Number21]

Where are you located?
Just a thought, if you are doing hydronic heating anyway, look into solar thermal collectors.

I have thought about that. I am in Oregon. I still need to look into what incentives might be available for this from the state and the feds. That is what I like about hydronic heating, I can have multiple sources of heat rather easily. I'm also looking into solar power, but I don't think it's going to pencil out.

Free energy really isn't an option.  More appropriate forms of energy are.  I suggest you look to the most efficient form of energy for your application.

I thought I was already clear. I am already decided. I will be buying WVO at $0.75 per gallon for heat. This will be by far my cheapest option for heating. How should I burn it?

From time to time I'll have some WMO to mix in, but it would probably be around 2%.

I'm reading in this thread as well as most others that if you're paying only 10 cents a KWH you're just kidding yourself about getting your electricity cheaper flat out without accounting for all the front end investment much more the maintenance besides fuel cost.

I didn't say I was looking for cheaper electricity. I'm making heat. If I burn it in a boiler I get heat and nothing else. If I burn it in an engine I get slightly less heat and some FREE electricity as a byproduct. What are all these costs? That is what I am asking about. Lets talk numbers.

How much does an off the shelf, UL approved vegetable oil burning boiler cost? Can it be done for $2,000? $3,000? $5,000?
How much does a diesel generator cost? $2-5 grand.
I have to buy one or the other. A diesel generator is only a fancy boiler to me. Both will have associated installation costs.

A boiler will have less maintenance and operating costs. How much, exactly?
An engine will cost more to keep running than a boiler. Is it still more than the electricity I can make?

If any of this is incorrect, please tell me what is wrong. That is why I am asking.

If you're wanting another interesting hobby then lets start talking sound suppression

I have industrial zoning, I can make all the noise I want. We run big 2 stroke engines at WOT all the time in our test tank inside the shop. A diesel generator ticking over in my utility room will go unnoticed. I might build a separate shed for this on our storage lot out back, but, if it's in the building the heat that I don't catch will still go into the shop.

[LowGear]

Thanks for getting back on my reflections.  I've hung around these sites for a few years but haven't done much hands on work.  I've been led to believe that a gallon of WVO or any fuel has only so many BTUs and that the trick is to get as many of them out as possible that suit you best.  Hence the phrase "No Free Energy" or is that no free lunch.

And while I'm entranced by tricky complicated stuff I have often came back and asked myself "Why Can't I Keep It Simple?".  I've even rephrased it to Keep It Simple Smarty. I suspect that moving that piston up and down uses a fair amount of those BTUs.  I believe the WVO burner units will fit onto fairly conventional boilers and have so fewer parts.  Parts that are small and easy to deal with and aren't nearly as dirty.  You and your team will be sharing the environment with your machine servants.

Casey