Who uses Waste engine Oil?

[BruceM]

I'm very impressed with Ronmar's Babington heater too.  That huge temperature swing (30-70F) for a shop that big in 15-20 minutes is awesome.

[glort]

  I imagine proper water injection would be more complicated although water is certainly cheaper than propane.

I'm not sure "Proper " injection as in like a car is needed.  Maybe it is, Like I said, I'm not sure.
I have run a very basic injection system on my vehicles since the beginning of my veg days and despite so many people telling me it's "wrong", there is no doubt it's worked very well on a variety of vehicles.

I use nothing more than a garden misting Nozzle driven either by a windshield washer pump or more  recently for greater volume, one of those 12V marine type pulse pumps.
With a WMO engine, I think I'd try something like a drip type setup  onto the air filter to humidify the air or have it go straight into the manifold.
Another thing I was thinking of was using a CV Type carburettor like off a bike with the throttle plate removed and running water instead of fuel.  I think a CV type carb with a very light spring  would self regulate to the demands of the engine keep the air well saturated with water. Of course it could also be adjusted to regulate the water flow with Different Jet sizes.

I noitice on my horizontal Engine there is already a boss that is tapped on the side of the intake manifold. On the verticles there is a threaded plug for putting oil into the engine for easier starting. Could make things easier on both engines depending on which way I go.

[sailawayrb]

Hi Glort, by "proper and complicated" I meant actually vaporizing the water before injecting it which would normally involve a high pressure water pump and a nozzle having tiny holes.  However, I think you might be onto a better path by just dripping water onto pourous material and using a combination of engine heat and intake air flow to vaporize the water.  I see a larger diameter intake pipe section that has a sponge like material (but not as dense), perhaps retained in a SS cage, that is slowly gravity fed water.  I would consider this approach to be "proper and simple" and likely also preferrable to propane because of less complexity and lower acquistion/operating cost assuming this approach proves to be equally effective at preventing carbon buildup.  I would very much welcome hearing more about this if you proceed in this direction.

Hi Carlb, I also added natural gas to my 6/1 fuel options a couple years.  I run a similar level of natural gas as you indicated except that I retain my engine RPM control using SVO in lieu of diesel.  I only use 100% diesel for starting and shutting down and all my fuel management logistics are handled automatically by the control system.  I found that when the power grid goes down, it can be difficult to obtain diesel.  Obtaining SVO is much easier and you don't need very much when operating on natural gas.  I have yet to lose natural gas during a power outage...but I always have backup propane if that ever were to happen.

[Ronmar]

You could also use exhaust heat to vaporize water into steam for the intake.  On a Roid, the intake being adjacent to the exhaust would be handy for this.  You simply need a duct assembly attached to the exhaust and connected up into the air cleaner. Allow a small opening at the exhaust end so intake suction will establish a flow towards the intake.  Then all you need is a mechanism that allows water to drip onto the exhaust pipe at 350F+ and flash to steam. The duct will conduct the flashed steam to the intake.  I would want to wrap the duct and intake to help keep the steam from condensing in the intake.

[glort]

Sailaway,

I have avoided vapourising the water completely on purpose by using the low pressure pumps and nozzles.
It was my feeling that having the droplets get into the combustion chamber before changing state would help with carbon removal which was my real goal.  I know normally the idea is to have the water as a vapour but I think that's the goal of the performance orientated users, who seem to be the majority and the audience the WI manufacturers seem to go after.

I did see a paper on this some years ago that suggested my theroy of having the water droplets in the combustion chamber gave way to a sort of Cavitation which was a micro explosion as the heat and pressure rose in the cylinder and the water changed state rather violently. This was said to erode carbon deposits without the energy to erode the piston tops or other parts of the engine.

I can only say that my course injection seems to have worked well enough for me.  With my first Veg car, after fitting the WI I noticed a difference in the way the car ran after a couple of days. This was not at all what I expected but definately wasn't Imagination.  The engine made it's main improvements over the course of a bout a week of driving ( admittedly a busy week) but then kept on improving over many months with very subtle things that only a regular driver would detect. The main ones were starting, the engine note changing, and definately more torque.

I haven't noticed such a change in other vehicles I have had but my present one has definately changed engine note and Pulls way harder despite actually turning the fuel down on the thing.  I know that's not imagination because my son noticed when I turned the fuel down but now keeps asking if I turned it back up again.
On this one I'm committing the Internet sin of injecting pre turbo. I have been watching it over the months and can't see any difference in the compressor blades at all. They don't even look any cleaner which was one effect I WAS expecting.

For the purposes of carbon removal, ( and likely others) I'm pretty convinced that fine atomisation like all the manufacturers go on about is not needed at all and in fact a fine stream of water may even be better. I have poured water directly into the manifolds of running non turbo engines and at even low revs, say 2-2500 rpm, as soon as the water stream enters the manifold it's sheared and broken up rather spectacularly.  Having 200 PSI pumps and nozzles that spray a vapor so fine it never touches the ground to me in the majority is just hype.  For air cooling and charge density etc, you can have it a lot coarser than that and it will still be pure gas by the time it goes through the manifold, past hot valves and into the cylinder.

For vapourisation I think spraying the air filter is a great way of doing that. I nominated it more because of control factor than the ability to get droplets into the engine but something is better than nothing.  :0) I have tested a few filters this way and none of them seem affected by the water at all.  Another surprise given the treatment some of them have got trying to see some sort impact with them.

I like the Sponge idea. I see that as some Stainless Kitchen  scourers downstream of a water inlet.  I have packed a pipe with these for quietening exhaust and it worked well. I'm sure it would to disperse water droplets in an inlet quite effectively.

[glort]

Over the last few days I have been playing with my little China Diesel running on WMO.

Suffice to say, I'm far from impressed.

The main load I have been testing with is an induction motor set up as a generator running 3x 500W lights.  I have burnt about 7L of the WMO over about 6 hours.
It was pretty clear today the engine was loosing power when I could not hold the lights at 230V without Smoking like a steam train. It was also about as hard to start to day as I have ever known that engine.  I run it a lot on SVO and its usually hard to start with that in the pump from cold. A shot of spray degreaser or a cap full of petrol down the intake and once it fires, it's off.  Today It took about 5 windups with degreaser down the intake before it would keep running.
It would fire with the degreaser and hammer away a bit but would chug 5-10 sec then die.  It has NEVER done that before no matter what rubbish I fed the thing.

I finally got the thing going and warmed it up and gave it a few big revs to clear the thing but it wouldn't basicaly. The revs were right down and it was blowing clouds of black smoke. That is a new and undesired behaviour as well.  I put the lights on and it was clearly unhappy with the load smoking at just 200V.  I have run the same load at 300V with no smoke and could have gone higher lest my fear for blowing the lamps.
I thought I'd try blending the WMO with a bit of petrol to see how that went. It works well with veg, maybe it would with WMO? I put about 10% in another bottle of the same oil I was using and stuck the pickup in that.  I waited till I could see the level in the bottle had dropped 5 times as much as was needed to flush the straight stuff and couldn't tell the engine was running any different.

It could have been the engine was a bit clagged, it could have been that 10% is not enough but in any case, the engine wasn't happy and neither was I.
I decided to terminate the exercise and went and got a Litre of B100 and put the fuel pick up in that.  After a while when the Bio had gone through, I noticed the change in odour from the exhaust and also noticed the voltage had dropped to 180.  Second lesson with WMO, it seems to have more power than B100.
I reset the throttle to give 210V before the thing started smoking too much and let it run like that till it used about half a litre of bio.  It was clear the thing still was far from happy though.

I went and got one of the wifes plant spray bottles and squirted about 200Ml of water down the intake. I'm always amazed at how much water a diesel will take and I was squirting it in about as fast as I could steadily sustain. 
After the first bottle, the engine did sound happier. It had regained more of that diesel knock/ ringing tone which is always a sign of a happy engine to me. It fades with Veg but is still there if your ear is tuned to it.   I looked at the Voltmeter and noticed it was now making 240V on the untouched throttle setting. I refitted the air cleaner I had taken off and waited a while to see if it was the effects of the very cool intake I felt  but 10 min later, if anything, it had crept up a volt or 2.
The smoking was the normal bit of light haze this engine produces which you have to get the light right to see. Totally and utterly different to what it had been on the WMO and before the water treatment.

Thinking this was a good thing, I went and got some more water and really gave the thing a deluge. Nearly put the fire out a few times and made some white smoke but experience shows this is a good thing in cleaning and speeds up the process. Because the revs dropped the 3 phase motor lost excitation and was basically freewheeling. I hit the throttle on the Diesel and it revved briskly and right out to it's top end like normal but what it wouldn't do near a little earlier.
I unplugged the lights, gave it another good rev which re energised the windings and dropped the lights on again. It settled right back around the 240+ it was at before.   After the 2nd Bottle of water, the voltage was up another 10V and the smoke was still just a light haze. I gave the throttle a touch and it came straight up over 310v with no lag or struggle.  After that I backed the throttle back to set the voltage at 220 and it was purring along.  I could feel the pressure and the exhaust heat were far less then when the thing was labouring along at 200V on the WMO.

I have been a champion of WI for many years now and if this wasn't as graphic a display as I could imagine, I don't know what would be. I also noticed how much the engine temp had dropped. I was sitting close to the engine spraying the intake and the cooling air was blowing on my leg.  Normally it's pretty hot at close range but now it was cool. as I sat there and watched the engine a bit more, a very rapid rise in the temp of the air coming off the engine could be felt.

It as quite a learning experience today.
I have a lot of reservations about straight WMO as I pretty much used it.  I didn't do anything to come to any conclusions about engine wear but the decrease in performance I saw kind of makes that a moot point to me atm.  If WMO was used, I think one would want to be thinning it pretty well with dino or plenty of petrol and I  myself would certainly be running some sort of WI to combat the clagging whatever it was that took away so much performance of this engine.

I know engines are all different but this little thing has been my test mule for years. I have put all sorts of crap and garbage through it but I have never seen it decline like the WMO caused. I have run turps and tranny fluid through it, print press cleaning fluid, Veg Oil I cracked and distilled and WVO Mayonaise I blended with water to see how that would go. It went better than the used engine oil!

I know some people have success with this but it seems I have more to learn with it. I have put so much WVO through that little engine and it never changes. The wmo is something different.  It's a shame because it would have served a purpose but I'm not confident in it atm.  Maybe I'll try to get some used tranny fluid and give that a go. Maybe I should pump one of the drums the old fella has which would contain a minx of the WMO and tranny fluid and see how that goes. I wouldn't know the ratio but it would be the real ratio of what he gets some of it has been sitting there a good while so at least should be fairly well settled and maybe have the kighter fractions at the top.


I need to research this more but I also have to weigh up the other factors. If the blended oil tranny fluid works better or with some added petrol, Might be OK. For generation purposes with the old fella, it may also be that when I go up there every month or so it may just be easier and simpler to go to the local chip shop, pick up 150L of the oil they always have sitting round and just set up a dump and go filtration system for him.

Even 100L of veg would be enough energy to put a dent in his power bill.

[Ronmar]

Were you doing anything to pre-heat the WMO?  I also didn't catch how many HP your diesel engine is rated for?  I am going to take a stab here and say the smallest Air Cooled diesels I have typically seen are around 5-6HP.  Is that about the size engine you are running?  I am also guessing that the test setup you are running with the induction motor, controlling output by RPM, is running the engine somewhere below it's peak rated RPM?

If my guesses are correct, that sounds like a failure with WMO was inevitable.  WMO is significantly thicker at a given temp, so it is not going to spray/mist as well thru an injector.  Add to that an engine running at 1/2 load or less(1500W would be an appropriate load for 3HP) and at reduced RPM, basically not nearly at full op temp on an air cooled, and less frequent power strokes, and that WMO is going to form carbon and foul the injector pretty quickly IMO.  Your running symptoms sound like that is what happened, that and the fact that water appeared to have cleaned it up and brought it back to "normal". That is where a liquid cooled engine has an edge, with it's ability to maintain a more reasonable op-temp with varying load. 

Knowing how WMO performs/sprays in the Babbington at low temp, I would not contemplate injecting WMO in a diesel without 200F or more of pre-heat to the oil.  My preheat coil on the babbington sets in the hot airflow comming off of the heater.  I have to heat the feed pipes with a torch for the first minute or two to maintain stable hot combustion, untill I can turn on the blower and start flowing hot air over the coil to provide the preheat. 

[Tom Reed]

I'd guess it was a coked up injector too. Glad it cleaned up. If you want to live dangerously, try it again and then remove the injector when it's "slagged" and see if you find a chunk of carbon on the injector tip. Also I've had better luck with WMO drained from gassers than diesels.

[mobile_bob]

fwiw

and i have posted this info in the past

i have done extensive testing on my trigen which is powered by a s195 changfa idi engine
water cooled enclosed with tstat and electric water pump, with radiator and thermostatically controlled
fan

the engine runs between 205 and 214deg F and during testing i ran it at full load

full load is determined as the point that there is just beginning to be some light smoking

what i found was about a 5% increase in power per unit of fuel consumed (in this case waste 15/40 series 3 low ash diesel oil)

there was no adverse effects notable with 50 hours of testing, so

the way i figure it is this

because of the relative low cost of replacement parts, and the very low cost of the waste oil as a fuel
which i got from known sources in known good condition (sans water and other unusual contaminants) the bottom line analysis clearly demonstrated that in this case the waste oil as a fuel over time was not only economically viable but down right desirable.

i could pull a full 8kwatts (300ft above sea level, 70deg F ambient temp) all day long if i wanted to using waste motor oil. coking was not a problem nor was any carbon buildup in my exhaust heat exchanger.

my conclusion was that the use of low ash motor oil, in an engine such as the changfa running at full load, up to 200 deg F coolant temps, and 1800rpm, while it might accelerate cylinder wear (again "might" as i saw no signs of wear) the fact that near free fuel source was clearly outstripping the overhaul cost for this engine.

when diesel is about 4 bucks per gallon you really don't have to run too many hours with near free waste oil to pay for rebuilds, and in my opinion the engine would likely run several times the amount of hours needed to break even.

this demonstrated to me that it is an economically viable fuel.

now would i recommend using it in an original lister or some other engine that has unobtanium or very expensive and hard to get parts for rebuild?  certainly not!

and would i recommend it for use in a listeriod with its relatively cheap and available parts? maybe, maybe not... i would want to do some testing to see how it worked out.

finally i would not recommend the used of waste oil streams that are of unknown origins, some oils have all sorts of additives, higher in ash content, certainly some will have higher concentrations of other contaminants such as water and acids, some/part or all of which likely will accelerate wear.  this sort of thing is likely exacerbated by the relative low speed operation of a listeroid, part load operation, relative low coolant temps and maybe other factors such as softer liners.

bottom line it makes sense to me on my changfa trigen for the above reasons, and the fact my engine will never see part load operation (apart from a few minutes at startup and shutdown).

again ymmv

bob g

[glort]

Were you doing anything to pre-heat the WMO? 

No, Didn't heat the oil. I think That is useless.  IMHO, the temp of the oil will be controlled by the injector pump and the injector. I don't believe that heating the oil before the IP is going to make a lo of difference especially when the oil then goes through the injector pipe and then into the injector which is embedded in the head.  If the oil is no hot from running through the injector, I don' believe it's going to be any hotter if it's preheated before hand.

I also didn't catch how many HP your diesel engine is rated for? I am going to take a stab here and say the smallest Air Cooled diesels I have typically seen are around 5-6HP.  Is that about the size engine you are running?  I am also guessing that the test setup you are running with the induction motor, controlling output by RPM, is running the engine somewhere below it's peak rated RPM?

This one is a 165 air cooled. I forget the name but I remember the initials YD embossed in the crank case. It is rated at 2.6kw@ 2200 rpm.
During the WMO test, I ran it in different configs from what I estimate to be about 60% power/rpm to over rated output as evidenced by the heavy smoking fairly early on. The engine was running PLENTY hot during the whole test. The heat coming off the engine was starting to worry me as it was significantly higher than on Veg.

If my guesses are correct, that sounds like a failure with WMO was inevitable. 

That's more than likely the case. My experience and knowledge with these things is 98% with Veg or Bio. I would not and have not had the problems I had with the WMO when using veg.  In Hindsight, it's my gut feeling that the load and certainly the engine temp should have been sufficient.  Perhaps what works with WMO is running an engine flat stick and not much under.

Knowing how WMO performs/sprays in the Babbington at low temp, I would not contemplate injecting WMO in a diesel without 200F or more of pre-heat to the oil. 

I know where you are coming from but maintain that the Temp of he oil should have been more than sufficient. If thinning was needed, I'd be doing it with Diesel , Bio or to a limit, petrol.  The other thing is, The pressure out of an injector is a bit more than a babbington.
I am also of the feeling that additional thinning may be required but I don't believe that preheating is not going to be near as effective as fuel Dilution.

Like I said, no doubt a lot to learn.  :0)

[mike90045]

Over the last few days I have been playing with my little China Diesel running on WMO. ......

Any chance the oil was synthetic base ?   Maybe try a fresh quart of 10-40wt  and skip the unknowns

[veggie]

+1 for what Mike said.

Glort, thanks for reporting your test in such detail.
A couple of observations...

1] The oil: The fact that it burned so poorly suggests that there may have been a high content of "un-burnable" liquids which degraded the overall mix.

2] The engine: It is the nature of air cooled diesels to run a bit on the cool side when it comes to cylinder and head temperatures.
Because they are not thermostatically controlled, the cooling system must be designed to tolerate high ambent temps. as a worste case scenario.
Lab tests on Duetz air cooled engines running WVO showed considerably more deposits on the rings and injectors than water cooled test units.
The cool cylinder temperatures created excessive deposits in only 50 hours of running.

I know it's not proper to quote tests without a reference or a link to the test but I just can't find the .PDF in my files at the moment.
When I find it, I will post it.

cheers,
veggie

[Ronmar]

I really believe heating the oil would help it break up and atomize better when sprayed from the injector.  The cold viscosity of the oil really works against the atomization process...

2.6KW is a really small diesel:)  Wish I could get a liquid cooled that size...

[glort]

Over the last few days I have been playing with my little China Diesel running on WMO. ......

Any chance the oil was synthetic base ?   Maybe try a fresh quart of 10-40wt  and skip the unknowns

No, The oil was from my own Vehicle. Being 22 years old, Even the cheapest supermarket grade oil is about 7 ratings  above the engine spec requirements. The oil I did use was known brand Mineral oil of current specs.
All the oil would have had in it is about 20% B100 Which I put in the oil  to help it drain out of the engine and the residual from any Veg oil the vehicle runs on.

Veggie,

As above, I don't know what the oil would have in i that was unburnable.
I drained it from my vehicle and as soon as I changed the filers and refilled the engine, I filtered what I drained out and used it.  No chance of water or anything else other than the Bio and any left over veg. If anything, they would have been an asset in this case.

I think perhaps I'll have to get a laser thermo to take some temps.  I can get a clear shot at the barrel of the engine and the cooling fins and also the crank case.  Not sure if he exposed part of the head is the head itself or a cover. never really looked or though about that.
What temps would you think the cylinder and ( if it makes any difference) the crank case would want to be?

If I get a laser thermo, I could check the temps of the injector with preheating of the oil and without.  I'm as confident in my beliefs as Romar is in his so it would be interesting to see which theory is the more correct and learn which one does apply. I'd be keen to give this a go on vehicle engines as much as stationary ones.  I could try a thermo couple but I'm
not sure how I would get an accurate contact/ reading off a Fuel injector pipe.

While I have no doubt as to the tests you quote, that kind of throws up another problem with WMO with what others are saying about using it in a lister.
Perhaps we should be trying to establish some guidelines for what does work best.  Temps an air cooled or water cooled engine should run at, minimum loads, and what has worked for people.

The Combustion requirements aren't clear to me atm. I would seem heat is he key factor but I may still be missing something.

[veggie]

Something else that occurred to me is that your air cooled engine may be Direct Injection.
We all know how sensitive DI is to viscosities greater than DinoDiesel.
Instead of spraying as a mist, the oil may be exiting as droplets and stings of goo.

Key to any alternative (viscous) fuel is the reduction in viscosity.
Done in one of two ways...
1] Dilution with a much thinner liquid (ie: Gasoline)
2] Heating until the alternative fuel viscosity approaches 8cP to 10 cP

Then run the engine as close to full load as possible for best thermal effy.

veggie