Water Injection for a Listeroid

[craigcurtin]

Guys,

I am shortly going to be buying my first Listeroid (see other posts) and intend to run it on Vegoil. It will startup/shutdown on Biodiesel but once upto temp will then switch over to Vegoil.

One of the issues with vegoil is if the engine is not hot enough then there is the chance of excessive coking in the cyclinder (and all the issues that could lead to). I plan to run a water injection system on the unit to hopefully alleviate some of this.

My plan was to control it with a simple timer so that the water system comes on for 5 minutes every hour and gives the engine a quick "clean"

has anyone else tried water injection on a listeroid ?

regards

Craig

[mike90045]

I've heard also that giving it a "whiff" of propane, is supposed to help too, although it seems like you 'd have to run quite some time on it.  Water injection could be as simple as a windex bottle with water in it.  psst  psst.

I'd be very afraid of hydro-locking it with something automated.

[craigcurtin]

Jens,

Good to hear someone else has experimented. I intend to rack up the hours pretty quickly on my unit with it running 15 hours per day once broken in.

As such i am really interested in anything that will prolong the running time and longevity of the system.

I intend to use a professional system such as those used for cars etc - Devils Own is one of the better known units. I think it will be automated based on exhaust temperature and interlocked with a vibration sensor - i was only intending to run the unit intermittently - something like 5 minutes every hours or so just to break down any coking that wanted to form.

I also intend to use a solenoid just prior to the injection nozzle to ensure that there ar eno drips etc after the unit is switched off.

Will keep you updated on progress

regards

Craig

[Capt Fred]

Howdy Craig

I start/shutdown on dino diesel and run on veggie and other stuff once in a while - I use a spray bottle with 50/50 water & kerosene once a month or so (sorry not very scientific) but it seems to help.

"Other Guy"  has 14 months operation 12 or more hours per day - (do the math - he wont buy an hour meter).  We were talking about carbon tonight he has two carbon cleanings over the last 14 months - roid is running fine as we speak (veggie oil with start/shutdown on dino diesel).

Cheers, Fred

[BruceM]

Jeff Myers did a report on another forum showing before and after photos running with a very small amount of natural gas metered to the intake manifold. It did remove carbon deposits very effectively.  

I did some testing with Propane, and at 5600ft elevation it make a noticeable improvement in clearing the exhaust or increasing power black smoke level.

A problem mentioned by more knowledgeable folks than I on automated water injection was that the 6/1 is already runnning too cool, and adding water would make it worse.

[mike90045]

... a very small amount of natural gas metered to the intake manifold. It did remove carbon deposits very effectively.   ...

Is that done on a continuous basis, or just a couple minutes once in a while ?

[BruceM]

Jeff's NG setup was metered continuously.  I don't know about the effectiveness of "purge" runs, but I was able to run my 6/1 on about 80% propane without complaint in some crude load testing.

[vdubnut62]

This may be silly, but has anyone thought of using a small carb plumbed into the intake somewhere to introduce water into the intake stream? An adjustable main jet model from an older lawnmower with a float, and the butterfly removed, seems like it would allow a wide range of water volume, with very little danger of hydrolock. A small tank, holding maybe a quart could be filled once a week or month or
whatever schedule works for your application.
Just thinking, if anybody smells smoke, run!
Ron

[wormshoe]

Wormshoe here.....

Sadly, I do not own a Lister, but I enjoy reading about everyones' adventures with these magnificent machines.

Injecting water has its benefits.  Metered in the correct amount (with the engine under a light to moderate load) water will remove a great deal of the buildup as several have already pointed out.  I would not attempt to plumb an automated system for several reasons. At some point, the water will find its way into the cylinder while the engine is at rest with the obvious consequences. Another real concern is the potential pressure rise in the cylinder when the water changes from a liquid into steam (1200 times expansion rate ?  I have forgotten) and the added stresses (rod angularity exerting more force on the major thrust side of the piston/cylinder - rod bearings - crankshaft twisting etc.). Spraying a mist into the airstream would be fine. Mistakenly shooting a hefty stream of water from a spray bottle might be another matter.

This is not from my own research. Experiments on WW2 reciprocating fighter planes showed that not only did the engines run cleaner, but that tremendous power gains were to be had if, as the experimentation showed, if the water was metered right behind the intake valve as opposed to anywhere else in the airstream.  Test showed that the ignition timing on these gasoline engines could be advanced and as a result, power gains could be realized.

Several of us, as instructors at an automotive trade school (late sixties in Saint Louis) experimented using water carefully poured into a carburetor with the gasoline vehicle under a moderate load on a dyno. The water always did a marvelous job of breaking the carbon loose....brown deposits would always show up on the shop floor under the exhaust outlets.  Two points to consider: the engine had to be under a load to ensure that the carbon deposits were hot (not glowing) so that when the cooler water vapor came into contact with the carbon, the thermal shock would be enough to help in dislodging the crud....AND...you had to be real careful in how much water came out of the used coffee cup and how it was distributed in the primaries and/or multiple carbs.

I know of experiments being run using the old Rochester Dog House Fuel Injection (Chevy) were a water system was plumbed and another nozzle was added to each intake runner aimed at the backside of the intake valve. Worked great until the water leaked into the cylinder after the engine had been shut down....don't ask.

I apologize for drifting off the primary topic of Lister water injection. I would stick with spraying and periodically adding a fuel additive to your day tank. 

Thank you for allowing me to lurk in the shadows while you fellows are doing all of the work and having all of the fun.

Nils

[billswan]

wormshoe

Welcome aboard sir, and no apologies necessary the story you wrote will help teach someone here something. Carry on!

Billswan

[cognos]

...I suspect that all water would have been vaporized by the time it enters the cylinders so no huge rise in pressure would be evident.

I can only guess that you mean that the water you squirted into the intake will have been fully turned to steam prior to entering the combustion chamber? If not, then I think there will in fact be a large increase in pressure, as water vapour is expanded into steam.

Is this not what is desired? There is a spalling effect, and a velocity effect on the deposits, as they are contacted by "cool" water, as it is explosively converted to steam?

I'm just trying to learn what's really going on here, cleaning with water injection is one thing, using water injection for a power increase is a separate thing that may, as a side effect, help with deposits?

[mike90045]

In a "multi cylinder" engine, a stream of water is fed into the carb, along with the airstream.  I had an Edelbrock kit, with water tank, electric windshield washer pump, and a vacuum sensor.  When the vacuum went low, above 1,000 rpm, the pump would fire up, and squirt water.  The airflow instantly broke the water into a mist.

With a single cylinder, the air may not do that, but now I'm thinking of these "foggers" which are a little hockey puck, ultrasonic atomizer, and they create a "fog" of water mist. Feed that into the intake, after the air cleaner, this stuff is wet, and after time, would create puddles.  Just another thought.

[wormshoe]

The conclusions of the research which I initially mentioned only involved gasoline engines that, for the most part, create a manifold vacuum when running. The lister's speed is not controlled by limiting the airflow as everyone knows. Injecting the water spray into a partial vacuum (gas engine) probably behaves differently than injecting the water into a 650 rpm, low valve overlap cam profile, with a nearly non-existent manifold vacuum (minus design-based volumeteric efficiency losses coupled with a potentially dirty air cleaner etc.) application like many of you are dealing with.

I don't know how the water would behave when entering the Lister's combustion chamber.  I can only make some assumptions which may or may not be relevant. If the water is injected at a point beneath the air cleaner, there is a possibility that the water might might 'puddle' as a result of any 90 degree turns that might exist in the intake manifold and/or condense out of the air stream because of cold, ambient temperatures. Just some thoughts.

Engine corrosion is another possibility that I would like to think through before considering anything other than an infrequent application of water. Folks like Veggie and others might not be too concerned about the sulphur in traditional diesel fuel reacting with water vapor, forming sulphuric acid and raising hell not only in the cylinder, but also being scrapped down the cylinder wall and returning to the oil sump. I would think that any increase in the amount of water vapor being pushed through a Lister (many of you not using thermostats with subsequently lower engine operating temperatures) would run the risk of damaging a whole load of stuff in the crankcase (worse case) or at the very least, drastically reduce the time between oil changes. Just some thoughts.

Returning to the original research: their conclusion was that the optimum injection point was directly behind the intake valve. They went on to say that this point of injection offered the maiximum amount of charge cooling entering the cylinder and also positively affected the flame propogation (the rate of burn and the manner in which the mixture burns). These characteristics allowed them to increase the ignition timing without encountering some of the more typical problems associated with this technique. In addition, the expansion associated with the change in state from liquid (any remaining small water droplets) to steam would also add to this affect.  All in all....pretty cool.

One last concern was voiced by Jens earlier in this discussion.  I agree. When the water vapor reacts with the carbon (at least in a gasoline engine) a sludge-like material is emitted from the exhaust....varying in color from black to brown.  I have noticed in your discussions that some of you have constructed some elaborate exhaust systems that not only silence the exhaust note, but involve a lot of plumbing as well. It would be my guess that continued use of water as a maintenance procedure would result in a buildup of a carbon-like residue in some remote corner of your exhaust system which may lead to an unwanted restriction and/or some additional exhaust system cleaning procedures in the long run. Just some thoughts.

[dubbleUJay]

Everyone seems to have problems with cleaning the exhaust heat exchangers.
Why not have something like in the quick drawing I made below?
Just detach the end cover, clean with a gun-barrel brush, give it a quick run to get the loosened stuff out, replace cover

Or am I missing the point?
dubbleUJay

[lowspeedlife]

most of this is to be eliminated with Bob's super secret heat exhanger design... or so I have heard.

   Scott R.