The scope and power of the future EPA can be changed.

[Horsepoor]

I was going to present this topic in the future but now seems like a good time. Last year, as a constituent, I and other business men had good conversations with our Congressman Allen West, now former Congressman. There is a big push back brewing in the USA on the job killing, business killing, rules and regulations promulgated by this bureaucratic monster - the EPA. When people finally wake up and the pendulum swings back the other way in favor of getting rid of all these job killing / businesses killing regulations, then this is the time to act as follows:

Within the thousands of regulations being rolled back, will be a simple exception granted for stationary engines, just as the law read back in 2005 before unfavorable changes were made. We are a small group, the opposition and big fights will be on such things as defining the emissions of coal fired plants, vehicle emissions, etc. We are a small target.
 
This is when we, as a group, write our respective congressmen / women and push for repeal of CFR #123XYZ. Believe me, there will be so many other hotly contested regulations, our little area of concern isn't worth the environmental fight, and could easily pass virtually unnoticed within the thousands of repealed regulations. However, this would require a focused and directed letter campaign by forum membership to their representatives when the time is right. Today, the time is not right. Perhaps, the 2014 and 2016 elections will place majorities in the Congress, Senate, and Executive branch. If so, these newly elected representative will want to show some results, low hanging fruit, easy changes to EPA regulations, like the band on compression ignition stationary engines of less than 50 HP.

Former Congressman Allen West was on board; He was confident many of his peers would support this simple change and any the repeal of other regulations likely to promote business. I presented this proposal, along with other campaign contributors, from the stand point of stationary compression ignition engines, not necessarily Listeroids. Let's see what the future holds, I'll share more information when the revolt against these draconian EPA regulations comes. This is do able, we are a small environmental target. with voices across the country.      

[LowGear]

Tweaking sounds appropriate.

But when I long for lung plugging air to breath while I earn almost enough to feed myself and pay for a rented 1.67 apartment I think China and those other heavens without the stinking EPA job crushing regulations.  Low standards are when causes capital to move to other countries not opportunities to design and implement a more sustainable commerce.  Businesses are not dieing.  They are moving to pastures where they can make more money with less effort to support their multi-room entry level palaces.

Casey

[mobile_bob]

having had several conversations with not only various members here, other interested parties and the epa combined heat and power partnership, i have  this to say.

fighting the epa is a waste of time, we don't have the money or the power to get anywhere bickering with them... furthermore...

in my opinion the chp partnership folks are actually not bad folks at all, quite the contrary i have found them to be quite helpful answering questions... we must also bare in mind the chp partnership is directed toward megawatt class operations and really it surprises me they even give kwatt class operations the time of day... much less our class of operations which are for the most part between 2-10kwe with the majority in and around the 3-7kwe class.

it really shouldn't come as a surprise that they are less than enthusiastic for this itty bitty segment of the market... allowing exemptions for compression ignition engine's in and around this class is really more trouble for them that it is worth... afterall we must remember there are CI engine's in this class that are tier 4 compliant, they just are very expensive and not generally something the vast majority of folks that frequent these forums will be making extensive use of...

very hard to justify a 4-5k dollar tier 4  six to ten hp engine for a cogen, when most folks can and have built fully functioning systems for as much money and that includes all the ancillary parts (heat exchangers, frame/mounting systems, pumps, plumbing, tanks etc)

so while by itself i am not overly optimistic about the political approach, i think it is fair to include it in an multifaceted approach to the chp partnership.

the chp partnership is and has been all about nat gas engines... and there is definitely room for development of chp units that use nat gas as the primary fuel.

now i know there are many folks that do not have access to nat gas, however most can access propane and maybe as more vehicle nat gas saturation of the market takes place nat gas will be available for filling a tank down at the corner convenience store?  maybe? who know's

all i know is this,,, the sand box is owned down to the last grain of sand by the epa here in the US, and soon to be so in Canada, and likely much sooner than some would expect in other places such as EU countries and Australia.  so if we are guests in the sandbox, we got to play by the rules! and quit fighting with them.

when one gives this a good amount of thinking there are many pro's to nat/gas apart from epa clean air concerns that we really ought to consider.  things like extended engine lifespans, extended service intervals, less wear and tear on exhaust exchangers (let alone far less cleaning out carbon for some types) and my bet is less noise as well.... then we might also find a higher temperature delta in the exhaust heat which makes harvesting heat easier... and we all know that diesel does not have an infinite shelf life... i am fairly certain nat/gas has an infinite shelf life and is stable over a very large ambient temperature range.

yes there are some con's, not everyone has available nat/gas, and if you have to fill a tank they will be costly and there is a certain level of danger involved with handling and transport... although that might go away in the future in some area's should the time come that the gas company can set a tank and fill it for you at your location?  maybe?  who knows?

we are as a group probably going to have to have a convention sooner or later, so that we can all get our heads around the rules, determine what can be done and formulate a multifaceted approach to present to the chp partnership with the hope and reasonable expectation of being granted some sort of exemption for a particular engine to be used in chp applications.

this might be painful to many here and especially on the LEF forum, but i really do not see the listeroid as being the prime mover of choice for this project, however those that disagree with this position would be free to present the case for the listeroid at such a convention and we will see what makes the  most sense.

this is a huge task for one or two people to undertake, however given enough thought, and breaking up the tasks between several people, maybe a winning presentation would result with the epa chp partnership.

i don't see any other way of getting there, sad as it might be.

they will not change their minds unless we can present a very compelling reason for them to do so.

and quite frankly a bunch of diy'ers with vastly disparate approaches is not very compelling to those in power to help us.

bob g

[Henry W]

Very well written Bob. I am in total agreement.

Henry

[Horsepoor]

I must confess, we did not present this to our congressman as a DIY hobby, but as an import / export business opportunity. Each of us are successful / well to do. We contribute and work on the campaigns of our representatives. Whereas EPA goodwill is desirable, I prefer the legislative influence approach.

Think of all the exceptions carved out for special interests. Elected officials are by definition political animals. Consider the nasty polluting 2 stroke weed eaters and similar. The EPA and others may chip away at ownership of these devices, but would face a revolt if banned.

I don't want to get to deep in detail on public forum, just planting a seed for thought, that there may come a time in the future when a roll back of some draconian regulations will be possible, especially for a small target segment of the market. If and when that time comes, a multi prong approach is the best approach.

[Mad_Labs]

This isn't going to be popular but....

The EPA is why we have clean water to drink and clean air to breathe. This country would be a filthy health hazard to all of us without it. We, and all of our children, owe a great debt to the EPA.

As to job killing, it's more like job shifting. There are plenty of jobs for inventing and maker cleaner technologies etc. Yeah, the EPA has and can over-reach. Some policies may be misguided. But the EPA has done way more good then harm. Go outside and take a deep breath and then have a glass of water.

Jonathan

[quinnf]

I don't disagree with a lot of that, having grown up downwind of LA.  In the '60s the air was brown on warm days and even surfing, snorkeling, playing in the waves my chest would ache at the end of the day.  Cars are lots more fuel efficient now, but they also cost a lot more due in part to the expensive technologies employed.  However, I think what bothers people is that the EPA is headed and staffed by political appointees and is completely unresponsive to the citizens who pay the salaries of the staff.  Thus, there is no check on the zeal of the regulators, which runs counter to what we are taught in civics is supposed to be the case with a representative republic form of government. 

[mobile_bob]

my problem is one of diminished returns

yes the epa has done a good job, however

once you have accomplished about 95% getting further reductions becomes horrendously expensive.

it goes something like this

"you get 90% of the result using 10% of the effort/dollars, and getting the last 10% requires 90% of the effort/dollars"

getting to tier 3 was a monumental effort for manufactures, then having to get to tier 4 was a stretch that took oem's like cat out of the heavy truck engine business... this cost jobs big time

also it is fair to note that efficiency dropped in the process, as along the way the systems required richening the mix in order to get the cat/converters to continue to work properly... now they inject fuel to regenerate the cat and particulate filter systems on the heavy trucks and that has proven to be a horribly expensive proposition... this of course leads to about 10k bucks added to the base price of the truck which of course gets passed down in the cost of freight and with margins added right down the chain to the consumer.  and the trucks don't get better mileage either.

i am also not crazy about political appointee's being the ones in the lead positions at any regulatory agency,  often such appointee's have no area of expertise in the area that the agency regulates.  then we end up with a result much like we do when we have community organizers run things like wars.

now to be fair to the epa, they do have the epa chp partnership and thankfully it is controlled by folks that have not only a very advanced understanding of the technologies but are highly educated folks in related technologies and not political science majors. 

if we didn't have the chp partnership my feeling is we would be doomed with no possible avenue to even discuss apart from waiting for a day when the nations politics change sufficiently to be able to get some regulations softened a bit.

even then i would not hold my breath as there are far larger fish to fry with our political leaders than them taking even a minute to consider regs for import of small diesel engines, most especially given we don't have the political clout of a large oem group that might have interest in importing a specific family of engine's to be included in a product.

bob g

[SteveU.]

Very good beginning statements in your post Mobile Bob.

The center of failures in "modern" educated thinking is the lack of consepts of Diminishing Returns and that advancement in any direction can be infinate.
Every year we graduate newly educated fresh blood enthusiastic young to go out and be world changers. If an engine can get 250 grams per horsepower hour why not improve it to get 200? 150? 100? Ha! Eventually they just run on hot air!
Applied to IC engines emmisions this leads to always another higher more expensive "just discovered" pollutant mountain to conquer.

Like some on this topic have said I can well remenber hacking and coughing with mid-summer visible Smog and mid-winter CO/HC's in the Portland OR air and watersheds. Hacking and coughing in the Casade river valleys from year around  from moll waste wood burning Wigwams. Grind it up. Compress it. Pelletize it and make an added value product out of it.
Much. Much. Cleaner now.
I was with the EPA on responsibilty assignments and amelioration of the low hanging poison apples. Even reach up to the more hard to get mid high ones.
Unburned hydrocarbons were Bad and a complete waste of fuels potential.
Carbon monoxide was very health BAD and also a fuels potential watste and needed to be reined in.
Lead fuel additives were simply Death and did need to be killed off. But Paints? This violates fuction over form.
Engine oxides of nitrogen were the tough one as any way done this kills fuel economy and power.
These; and soots are where you will never get the EPA to play simple and DIY affordable with high compression ignition engines. They can ONLY love the "natural gas" engines. They are GreenPolitiacally harnessed to this mantra for thier funds.
Mandated ultra low sulper refined and across the board continetal wide fuel oxegent additives regulation do not reflect the realities of living on a whole diverse needing continent let alone world.
Clearly a lot of back room "political" "comprimising" (vote exchanging) and $$$$$$$ lobbying  went on here.

But I broke away from the Greens and the EPA geeks over the 90's carbon dioxide declared as a pollutent. With HC fuels the higher your CO2 output the more complete  conversion of CO, HC's in your combustion process.
Then clearly this Journey into Always Finding a Problem Needing Legislating and Regulating becomes not about the science of it but about the art of Social Control. The "educated" minority dragging everyone and everything along for thier benefits of fame, "better schooling for thier children, a more expensive car and a McMansion house and lifestyle. Self-serving Priests. We can only actually ever afford a small percentage to live these lifesyles.

So here we are trapped now between long term, long suffering Gov'mint employees putting in the time until retirement; and EcoFreekingPoliticalActiveGreens now declaring WE the Humans are the real Disease to mother earth. No reduction will ever be good enough for them until the elimination of all HC fuels on top of all Nuke and Hydro and those bird killing wind machines. And they are winning this culture war in IC engines by killing off the manufactures and suppiers one by one. THIS has been the greatest loss of diversity and choice in these last 40 years of needed cleaning up. THEY readily WILL throw out the human baby with the dirty baby water on thier road to untimate "purity".
True Life is always a balance.
EPA and too many other US Federal, State and even County Agencies this consept of Balance has been lost in chatter and clutter of narrower and narrower special interests.
We only need to look to many parts of the western EU to see now how far this can go.
WE only need to look at the industrialized sectors of current China to see how far we have come and where we would have remained without cleaning up change.

I will not be following this forum along with EPA co-operating. I lived that fron 2000-07.

The balancing effort now for my remaining time is helping others now forced to be scofflaw's make and keep DIY fueled IC engines running for thier own personal Power and Heat Independence. And hope and pray for the swing back to reasonable balanced thinking before all of the Manufacturing babies get thrown out to the Wolves.
Just as our Greatest Generation parents were reluctant to say they could be wrong about a never ending 35 year war economy and it's pollution, this 70's to current generation will be reluctant to balance out thier thinking that they too were brainwashed into unsustainable thinking that living All green, All of the time, for Everyone could ever be long term sustainable.
If you want to build sustainably you have to cut down some trees or hack/mine stones and rocks.
If you want to heat sustainibly big diesel equipment mine for silicon and trace metals, process with Nuke or Hydro; or cut down some more trees.
If you want to eat sustainable be willing to break some eggs. Kill, clean and dress some chickens.
A real Human accepts responsibibly for this and does all of these and more as directly, humanly and cleanly as possible. To just be a consumer/voter then that is your sole worth.

Regards to All
Steve Unruh

[David Baillie]

I rarely post here but thought I would contribute.  I feel for many of that generation of green currently in charge of things.  Those who came before achieved that 90% previously mentioned simply by regulating things.  It's not that easy anymore.  I personally believe that reason will only return  when the money runs out.  Until then everyone goes on believing that anything is possible, regulators and regulated. Unlimited energy consumption with no consequence, ever larger houses for everyone, more and more air travel, bigger and bigger toys.  As a somewhat younger hardcore greenie I see a much lower level of consumption as the only solution there is no magic bullet.  Smaller houses, less driving, smaller cars, and as far as power generation goes use less so run smaller engines and for less hours. Just me of course,
Best regards,       David Baillie

[glort]

The only real solution to the worlds Pollution/ energy problems is to limit and put a cap on The earths population.

That won't happen because all the financial systems and monetary Strategy's rely on growth and that is implicitly tied to more people.
Pretty much everything else is nothing more than lip service. 

The whole Green Movement is also Hypocritical and completely money driven just using the environment and saving the planet as a great excuse to screw people over.
There are a load of effective and significant things that could be done to have a real impact but they are ignored simply because they are not conducive to the bottom line of big Business and the Gubbermints they have total influence over.

[LowGear]

As I remember, Bill Clinton signed into law that brought the job crushing, development arresting regulations effecting capital financing back into the hands of the most capable and best suited operators.  It worked great for almost 15 years. 

Eden lasted maybe a year.  Only one regulation.  Human population of two.  Divine leadership.  This government, business and society stuff just ain't easy.

Casey

[buickanddeere]

Tweaking sounds appropriate.

But when I long for lung plugging air to breath while I earn almost enough to feed myself and pay for a rented 1.67 apartment I think China and those other heavens without the stinking EPA job crushing regulations.  Low standards are when causes capital to move to other countries not opportunities to design and implement a more sustainable commerce.  Businesses are not dieing.  They are moving to pastures where they can make more money with less effort to support their multi-room entry level palaces.

Casey

  Nobody here wants  dirty air and polluted water. How can you say that ?
  What we are concerned about is the EPA wanting to reduce negligible emissions to even lower standards. The cost to obtain 1/10 of nearly nothing is too high to pay.
  Roll the regulations back to Tier II.
  The EPA as other government organizations has become a self serving empire of power and control by those who are unaccountable .

[vdubnut62]

Ah Glort, the cap on population is already in the process of deployment. Watched the news lately? Russia, Ukraine, The Middle East, Africa, each has a different facet of the Master Plan already in motion.
Truthfully, I believe in a Decade or so, nobody will give a Rat's Arse about the EPA or the "gubbermint" . The order of the day will be how to stay warm/fed/alive etc.

This has been your daily dose of "Gloom and Doom".  Thank you for your time and attention, now back to your regular programming.
Ron.

[Derb]

Cap on population - never happen in my lifetime. Too much of a political hot potato! It would take a huge amount of common sense to instigate population control and common sense aint that common. As for EPA issues - I rather like being able to swim around in our harbours without having to clench my teeth at present. (I am a bit of a moderate greeny.)