forum is another year older...

[mobile_bob]

got notification from the host that the dues are up again as we are closing in on a new
year with the forum...  not to worry i covered the cost for the next year so we are good to go without interruptions.

having said that i think it is probably past time to do some housekeeping around here, clean up some area's, do some moving around and maybe merge some forums with others, do away with some and maybe make some new ones...

i have a few ideas that i would like to see implemented as i am sure there are some that others here might also like to see.

bottom line is this as i see it...

with the epa reg's limiting the engines available to us, it dramatically limits interest in development of cogen projects (at least so for new guys that are just getting into it), so we probably need to rethink our approach and formulate plans that are more in keeping with the direction the epa has laid out of approved of. 

this might well me working toward development of air cooled diesels as there a several moderate priced offerings in the 10hp class... and we might well also start to seriously consider nat gas conversions of either spark ignition engines or conversions of compression engine's to spark or pilot ignition for use with nat gas.

while i am not suggesting we drop the diesel engine talk, i think we ought to maybe start some or change some forums toward these ends.

so lets have some discussion on this and other topics related to improving the forum so that we can continue to grow over the next year.

thanks guys

bob g

[glort]

I enjoy this forum and the lister one very much. My only complaint is this one is not active enough.

Something to remember is that not everyone that participates in these forums is from the US and may not have the over the top EPA crap you guys have to tolerate.
For us the idea of Cogen is wide open but under developed.

[Jens]

this might well me working toward development of air cooled diesels  ..... <snip>

Nooooo .... air cooled diesels are inherently evil (and noisy) .... death to all air cooled anythings !

[Mad_Labs]

I think that one area that might attract more traffic to the site is if we get a fairly simple 48VDC alternator mod to charge battery banks, along with a simple controller. Both topics of alts and controllers seem to generate some posts. I do have to admit that I am looking to do such a thing, so the suggestion is a little self serving. :-0

But I do think it is a topic that would get some attention. AFAIK there is no straight forward alt/controller combo out there. I have all the stuff to upgrade my system to 48V and one of the reasons I haven't is that I will be reliant on the inverter's charger and my 5kW gas genny to charge when needed. As it is now on 12V I use a LN555 rig that I built. Easier on fuel and quicker. Plus I have two back up charge methods in case one craps out.

And maybe condense or get rid of a few sections, there are a lot.

And Bob, thanks for all the effort. While the traffic may be light, there are some smart folks reading.

Jonathan

[mobile_bob]

Jonathan

getting 48vdc charging is not the difficult part, that is fairly straight forward following the theory of operation laid out in the white paper...

however, charging using this method efficiently has been a bit more of a challenge.

good point though... we need more work in the 48vdc realm

Jens:

i too am less than enthusiastic about the air cooled options, its just that they at least are widely available for use and might be something that could bridge the gap for new guys until other options become available... air cooled options could then be relegated to  backup purposes where the added simplicity of the aircooled engine might be seen as a positive.

very good point too!...  not many folks cotton to the noisy little bastards.

Glort:

yes the forum is sort of quiet comparatively speaking, however i would gladly trade quality for quantity... or maybe better said the signal to noise ratio seems a bit better these days.

yes we could spur more discussion should we decide to go back and rehash things that have proven to be a waste of time and resources... sometimes it is beneficial to revisit some topics just to see if there might be something new to add to the discussion... sad thing is for the most part anyway,  there really isn't much new under the sun.

as for the epa and the world at large,  remember what starts in one area of the planet often has far reaching tentacles and one day you too might wake to a form of regulatory agency that mirrors the efforts of our own epa or perhaps one that is more restrictive... this carbon tax/carbon credit scheme and the global warming brouhaha come to mind as this has been spreading all over the globe.

onward: 

for my part i know i could do more to add to the discussion, and i do plan on putting up some more on the following topics (some of which have been mentioned)

i would like to get into the weeds on the following topics

1. more system control strategies
2. more on the 48volt charging systems
3. more on heat exchangers
4. much more on nat gas conversions, both rich and lean burn


also...

having relocated back to my home town, and finding myself surrounded by a group of boys ages 12-14 and having been very involved with the public and private education systems, small town unification schemes and the general bullshit we are all aware of, having raised 4 daughters over the last 37 years.... well...

we have a problem in this country with the education system

(i am going to digress a moment or two)

we promote our kids by things like sports and music... things that entertain us as parents!  that is bullcrap of the first order in my opinion...

having taken the time to look at the last 75 years of high school year books, it is apparent to me and anyone that takes the time to look that this is the case... just look at the senior list and their accomplishments.

joe schmo: football 1,2,3,4  basketball 3,4 track 2,3,4 band 1,2 etc

suzi doe: chearleading 2, 3, 4  etc

(and maybe even worse)

max politico:  class president 1, 2, 3, 4  football 1, 2, 3, 4 (*quarterback 3, 4)

if we look further we find nowhere promotion of kids that excel in math or sciences!
no mention of science fair involvement or placements, no math?

we see maybe 50 kids and 10 of them are 4.0 students?  hmmm lets ck their background shall we?   well what do you know they are predominately dr/lawyer/politicians kid and if we dig further?  we find a large percentage of them having taken the most basic classes they could take for all 4 years... no stretching of the mind, no advanced classes that might take an inordinate amount of effort and might jeopardize that perfect 4.0 standing!

(now i have over generalized, as yes there are perhaps 2 out of the class of 50 that have legitimate 4.0 grade averages and who also took advanced math and science classes... however it is very doubtful that either were sports star's)

so where am i going with this?

my group of boys that i refer to as my "army" are what i would refer to as at risk kids
they all live here in the town that was absorbed by the larger town due to unification some 45-50 years ago and for the most part kids that don't come from wealthy families like dr/lawyer/politicians kids.

so... i am working on developing a program wherein i will start with a half dozen boys and we will be doing the advanced work here in florence... they can go to school and take the classes the public system has to offer, however they will have the opportunity to do things with this program that would never be available to them otherwise.

the little light went off in my head a few weeks ago when one of the boys came by and hung around a bit asking questions about the latest trigen project... i was in the middle of laying out and making the myriad of parts for the exhaust heat exchanger and became quite interested... hmmm... so i did a little test project

i explained to him in basics how the thing worked, some of the theory of heat flow, laminar flow, boundary layers etc... just the basic's and i went through it fairly quickly...

a few days later he came back with a few other members of the army, and while busy on another project i overheard another boy asking about the trigen and the new part hanging on the side...

what impressed me was the first kid that i went over this with in brief was now holding a class on heat exchangers!  and he did a well enough job for me to realize that this kid is like a sponge! he soaks it all up and better yet he remembers it all down to the smallest details.

so anyway i have found a source of things needed to do this project/class.  found a suitable building with lights and heat for the classroom, and i have found a source for grant money to help fund things like materials and books. and best of all i have found an promoter that is all about getting this off the ground.

one of my goals is to get the group into the microcogen game, and to be able to take their work to the county science fair.  they will learn scientific method, the use of an engineers notebook and probably most important "practical application" of all that crap they learn in high school.

its very hard to impress upon a kid the need for learning algebra or theory when all he see's in his future is working on a farm for someone else, or some other manual labor job for substandard wages... its a lot easier to get these things across as important when he can see how applying what he has learned gives him a leg up and maybe a few more options.

anyway in closing... i am thinking as time goes along, subdividing off a section of this forum for the boys use on topics related to what we do.

who knows, perhaps other members here can take the example, improve upon it and start up groups in their area's.

there are many benefits that after thinking about it a bit become quite clear, or they ought to be in my opinion, for the rest of us on the forum.

never a dull moment it seems

bob g

[vdubnut62]

I would be up for some basic tutorials in heat flow, laminar flow, boundary layers etc. The majority may not realize it, but some of us here, well me anyhow, I don't want to disparage
or insult anyone else, are trying desperately to learn, but are simply so ignorant in the pertinent skills sets required that I am lost.
So, it's not that I don't wanna, I just don't know how.
Ron

[Tom Reed]

I'll also vote for the 48vdc charging.

[quinnf]

[snip]

with the epa reg's limiting the engines available to us, it dramatically limits interest in development of cogen projects (at least so for new guys that are just getting into it), so we probably need to rethink our approach and formulate plans that are more in keeping with the direction the epa has laid out of approved of. 

[snip]

You might want to reach out to that guy in Centralia who seemed to have a line into the EPA.

q.

[Horsepoor]

Please keep the old lister engine forum. I find it a tremedous resource for problem solving. The technical information collected over the years of posts is like no other anywhere in the world. And as stated above, there are also many others around the world who have discovered this resource.

Although, I only have two listeroids, I find my self reading threads from years ago which sparks all sorts of ideas. Example: A thread started back in 2006 about porting a listeroid was just rediscovered a couple of weeks ago and I believe it is now on page #6.

I for one, love my listeroid hobby and would be happy to pay a membership fee to read both old and new posts. So why not list an address for voluntary yearly $20 checks to be sent in? God knows you, and many others on this site have saved me hundreds if not thousands of dollars. I for one would be happy to off set your expenses.

Bruce  

[mobile_bob]

don't worry about either forum going away

both are regularly backed up here and it at least one other place, so we should never
loose either of their content.

too much effort has been put into these resources by too many people to let it all just slip away... at least in my opinion... one i think is shared by many.

bob g

[Derb]

Regarding the dues - Giz a delivery address and I am happy to stump up. I am at the bottom of the world like many others but really enjoy having the use of the information and the friendly banter available. This is a great site and a real asset to us old engine buffs. Cheers for all of the hard work and resource sent out here on the forum.

[glort]

so... i am working on developing a program wherein i will start with a half dozen boys and we will be doing the advanced work here in florence... they can go to school and take the classes the public system has to offer, however they will have the opportunity to do things with this program that would never be available to them otherwise.

so anyway i have found a source of things needed to do this project/class.  found a suitable building with lights and heat for the classroom, and i have found a source for grant money to help fund things like materials and books. and best of all i have found an promoter that is all about getting this off the ground.

Geez, You mention this in passing like it's no big deal.  It's a HUGE contribution to kids and society in general.

I tried writing a few things as to how I agree with you in relation to my own kids but it ended up an equivalent of an encyclopedia.
Suffice to say my Young bloke is weeks away from his final school exams. He's always been an outstanding student in Academic, Sports and community type things.
That's bloody lucky because the simple everyday thing he doesn't know is staggering and keeps me awake at night.

I'm self taught in everything, I grew up with my grandmother so I learned to change a fuse and a tap washer or we sat in the dark and had to go to the mains everytime we wanted a glass of water.
Try hard as I may, I can't seem to get the young bloke to hang around long enough to show him squat. and it's not for the want of trying.

For you to go to the effort you are for these kids would earn you a civic award if I had the power to give them out.  My son's bad enough but he brings his mates around for me to do stuff on their cars and I kid you not, some of them have to be shown where to open the bonnet.

What really gets me is that I'm becoming seen as some sort of Guru/ wizzard/ Ubermechanic engineer.  At first I asked the Kids, " do you not have a dad that can help you?" Thinking back to my own situation or asking if dad worked away from home etc.  Every time the kids have sort of chortled and said something to the effect of their father not having the first clue about any of this stuff.

Now The mrs and I had kids a bit later in life than many but those dads aren't that far behind me and the fact they are basically useless says a lot as to why the kids don't know how to hammer a nail into a bit of wood either. I lament that I'm stupid with a lot of things because I don't have any sort of a practical trade but geez Louise, when blokes can't help their sons with simple car problems or fit a stereo for them, things aren't good.

Coming from the background I have Bob, maybe I realise more than most about what you are doing for these kids.  They will appreciate it now but treasure what you give them for the rest of their lives.  I had an uncle that lived far away so our time together was limited but I have probably spent 100 times more time recounting the few hours we spent together with him teaching me how to sharpen drills and weld and do other things that I'd be lost without today.  Matter of fact I cant look at a Drill or drill bit or a welder without thinking of him.  He once took me to a machinery shop in one of his visits and stupid as it may sound, every now and then, 25+ years later, I go to that place for no other reason sometimes than to relive that time we went there together.
Mind y9u I swear some of the used machinery is STLL the very same bits we looked at together but at least I know what everything in the place is and does.

Anyway, maybe I'm just a pussy that never grew up to do that but I'm pretty sure that what you are doing will be something those kids never forget nor you either.
From what I have read you are no longer a teenager yourself or quite up to running a marathon. It would be a big thing for a younger person to do but to make the effort with the difficulties you have is just bloody outstanding.

Maybe the biggest thing of all these kids will take away from what you are doing is to learn about helping others and giving back.
THAT is probably about the worlds most precious commodity of all these days.

Good on you Bob. You sure as hell have my admiration and respect.

[Dualfuel]

Dear Bob,
I home school a 9 and 10 year old boy...we live off grid. We microgenerate daily. When they want to watch videos...the first thing they go and do is check bank voltage...they will come and get me if its in the 11s. They are sent out to burn the trash...with MATCHES! I am an evil father....but they have risen to the challenge and want more...this summer has been educational for me...I have had a hands on educational course in hydraulic fluid power...so have the sprouts. The point?
I don't believe all your army will be microgenerators, but most of them could get high paying blue collar type jobs if they had a thorough working knowledge of hydraulics, in addition to engines and electricity. So please include this in your curriculum. When he was seven, my youngest was loading dumptrucks with a Hitachi 120 excavator, and doing so much steadier then his father...to him its just an extension of playing video games.
Anyhow, I applaud your effort and ideas, and I know it will inspire you as well.
BPJ

[Westcliffe01]

I just want to say that I have had a Kubota RTV 500 for a bit more than a year now.  Why do I say that ?  It has a very interesting 2 cylinder gas, water cooled, fuel injected engine.   The fuel economy seems great (I have seldom used more than 2 gal of fuel running the thing in low range all day).

Perhaps we could figure out how to get our hands on engines like this ?  It is a relatively low speed quiet and seemingly reliable engine.  One of the best aspects is that is starts great regardless of how cold the weather or how high the altitude.

Looking at the Kubota parts website I see it has 2 balance shafts which is obviously why it runs so smooth.  Looks very well made.  ~11kW at 3600rpm would be good for co-gen at a lower speed.