Injector Line Heaters

[veggie]

I picked up an Injector Line Heater from FattyWaggons in order to prepare for running on WVO.
http://www.fattywagons.com/fwproducts.htm

And I am wondering if anyone has operated these on a voltage other than 12vdc. ?
Being that they are a resistance heater, I am considering connecting it through a incandescent light dimmer control to 120AC POWER from the generator head.
The wire is rated at 100 watts so the load is no different than a light bulb.

Any other users of this product ?

cheers,
veggie

[glort]

I have been running veg for 9+years now and have done a LOT of experimentation and testing rather than just rely on the parroted mantras.
Most of the veg oil gospel I have found to be flawed. The need for heating the oil above the temp to melt and fats before the Filter is one of them on mechanical pumps.

I have not run my roid for a great number of hours yet but I have run it on straight WVO and as expected, the changes in the engines behaviour were Nil.  I have got substantial hours on 3 Chinese Diesels, 2 verticals and a horizontal as well as a hatz and they have had no problems. these engines have no mods other than a disposable fuel filter before the IP.

The "Concept" of line heaters as I understand them is to keep the oil hot and thin so the injector sprays it properly for correct combustion.  I believe this is a fallacy.
The final temp that the oil sprays from the injector is controlled by the injector itself.  The injector is very firmly embedded in the head with a great area of thermal contact.
By physics, the injector can only run at the temp of the head or hotter.  Heat always travels to the cooler area in an attempt to equalise any variation. You can't stop this.

The Fuel temp is also largely controlled by the injector pump. On vehicles where the IP is solidly bolted to the engine and especially the pumps that are lubed by engine oil, The pump controls the temp of the oil regardless of what the temp upstream is.  People go to overboard lengths to get the oil as hot as possible but it's pretty much irrelevant.  By the time the oil has got to any critical part of the pump where viscosity is going to be an issue, it's already been heated or cooled by the surface area of the IP and the path it has to take.

In the case of our listers, the oil will still pick up some heat from the pump, even by the pumping action itself. In any case, if you look at the inner workings of the pump, unless the viscosity of the oil was off the scale, there is nothing in it to break or be affected by oil of a higher viscosity. The pressures the pump and injector operate at negate any practical viscosity changes.
While there may be some cooling of the oil in the injector line on a lister, I believe it would be both minimal and irrelevant anyway.
Once the engine is up to temp, the injector is quite hot ( on my engine anyway) and given the residence time of the fuel in the injector which is a tiny amount, there is no way possible the fuel can be either cooler or hotter than the injector itself.

If the fuel is hotter the heat will bleed through the injector to the head and atmosphere and if it is cooler the heat will travel from the head to the injector and therefore heat the fuel before it is sprayed. The amount of heat available is far greater than the ability of the amount of fuel flowing to cool it to any significant amount.  Of course the tip of the injector is also exposed to different amounts of combustion temp at the nozzle.
  It's real easy to see how hot the injectors run, put your finger on the injector when the engine has warmed up and even feel back down the line towards the pump.  It's in no way cold even before it gets to the injector.

What I believe also makes the concepts of heating the fuel prior to the  Injector irrelevant is in the case of the engine being cold.  If hot fuel hits a cold injector sitting in an equally cold head, it's just going to be a giant heatsink and again the oil temp will equalise to that of the injector with the possible exception of a slight rise in temp when it hits the tip of the injector itself.  Regardless of what is done upstream, it's the injector that's going to control the oil and therefore way the oil sprays into the cylinder.

If anything, the only place I can see line heaters having any possible benefit is before the fuel filter to possibly raise the temp of the oil above that of any fats so as to melt and allow them to pass through without blocking the filter. After that point, heating the fuel on a lister or a vehicle engine I believe is irrelevant.

To thin the fuel and ensure better combustion, the best option in my experience is the addition of 5-10% of ULP.  This thins the oil far more effectively than diesel and it also brings the combustion charastics of the veg closer to that of Diesel.  In my tests at this ratio it adds power to the fuel by bringing the ignition timing  of the veg back closer to that of diesel. The addition of this rate of ULP is also hugely beneficial with cold starts particularly in winter.  I have owned vehicles that will not start without a shot of Meth down the intake but at 0oC in winter will start quite normally with a 90/10 blend of wvo and ULP.

I haven't tested with listers but in Vehicles I don't recommend going over 15% ulp because of power loss setting in at that point but mainly for the  problems that can come from vaporisation in the fuel system particularly when the engine is restarted after a short heat soak period.

I know there is a culture in Veg circles to heat the oil hotter than the sun at every opportunity possible, The physics and my experience and testing just don't bear out the validity.
My suspicion for this concept is so vendors can sell things like FPHE's heated filters, ILH's and all the other gimmicks available. Z
It also goes to my belief of why blending is not more popular in veg circles. There is nothing to sell anyone.  No Bio processors and the myriad of components and no heated fuel components.  Mix the stuff in a drum, throw it in your vehicle and drive away.

I think blending is just as beneficial for any diesel over trying to get the oil as hot as possible in winter conditions.

[Jens]

Veggy, although the power rating is 100W, there is a HUGE difference between a heater that is rated for 100W @ 12V and 100W @ 120V.  The first one requires about 8A to generate the 100W and the second one requires about 1/10 of that current to develop that heat. If you were to run the 12V unit at 120V (through a dimmer), you would have to set the dimmer at a very low power output level and their control just isn't fine enough for that. You would also need to limit the adjustment range so the output stays within the acceptable range and doesn't fry the heating element.
For what it's worth, my injection line heater was in fact run through a dimmer during testing but it was a 120V AC rated heater. The dimmer was eventually removed as it didn't really help with anything and the entire heating system was eventually disconnected as it didn't make any noticeable difference. In my setup the veg oil tank was in the same room as the engine so the veg oil was always relatively warm since the engine was run every day.
IMHO, glort has it right in that injection temperature is controlled by the injector temperature more than anything else. Of course the oil has to be warm enough to pass through the fuel filter.

I don't know off hand where I bought the line heaters but I can easily find out if you want that info.

[glort]

Veggy, although the power rating is 100W, there is a HUGE difference between a heater that is rated for 100W @ 12V and 100W @ 120V. 

Actually, a Watt is a Watt.

The volts and amps can be different but if they still work out to 100W, it's the same amount of power.
In this case, the same amount of heat energy regardless of volts and amps.

[uber39]

FWIW, when I was running a line heater I just ran it off an old down light power supply 12v 100w, never missed a beat

  uber39

[veggie]

Thanks guys.
I do have a 12 volt source available so I will use  that if necessary.

Uber39, whats a "down light power supply"?

[Jens]

Veggy, although the power rating is 100W, there is a HUGE difference between a heater that is rated for 100W @ 12V and 100W @ 120V. 

Actually, a Watt is a Watt.

The volts and amps can be different but if they still work out to 100W, it's the same amount of power.
In this case, the same amount of heat energy regardless of volts and amps.

You are of course correct on the Watt thing but I was talking from the electrical view point because that was the issue being discussed. If you stick 120V onto a heater designed to produce 100 W at 12V then you will end up with a big light and a smoke generator

[glort]

Sorry, that went over my head... even the 2nd time I read it. 

[sailawayrb]

I have been running SVO (and LPG) in my 6/1 since 2005.  I use 50 Watt/Foot heat rope that operates at 120 VAC and can be purchased at McMaster-Carr for about $20 for two feet (see P/N 3641K13).  The SVO is heated to achieve diesel viscosity level to benefit injector pump performance and longevity.  Startup/shutdown is with diesel and accomplished autonomously.  The LPG (and NG in recent years) is primarily for fumigation and has eliminated any need to do maintenance for carbon buildup.  The temp control fuel regulation system details can be found here:

http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_itemId=351

[glort]

^^^^ That is an amazing system you have built there.

I see things like that and always ponder how we can take something as hammer simple as a lister type engine and use it as a platform to build something which refines it so much.

A friend of mine did Viscosity tests of WVO at work on the proper measuring equipment. He found it was not possible to get WVO anywhere near Diesel density by heating it.
You can certainly thin it a lot, but getting it to diesel density requires a lot of thinning agent such as kerosene to really get it in the same ball park.
What he did find was the numbers for a number of injection pumps for their Viscosity range and the popular automotive ones such as the Bosch inlines and VE type will handle the Viscosity of WVO with minimal thinning by means of heating or blending.

The lubrication value of WVO ( and Bio) is magnitudes higher than regular diesel. I saw a test done some years ago where it showed that the addition of just 2% Biodiesel increased the lubricity of Diesel many fold as did the addition of 2 stroke oil at 200:1. Running engines on WVO must help pump and injector life many times over from a wear POV.

I am interested in your comment where you say that the LPG fumigation has eliminated the need for maintenance on carbon Buildup.
Did you find buildup before you used the LPG and if so where was it as in the head, ports or rings?  Since using the LPG, have you pulled the engine down and checked it or are you going by maintained performance or some other measure?

My pet engine maintenance/ carbon preventative is water injection.
I have used a rudimentary setup of a windscreen washer bottle spraying through a garden misting Nozzle and had great results with that on several vehicles I have fitted a setup to.   My examinations have been limited to checking injectors and glow plugs but the performance of the vehicles I have used it on has been improved over time when I fitted it and maintained despite all sorts of  against the grain testing. 
I found the addition of methanol to the water not only added power but also seemed to greatly help the cleaning effect.

For the lister I am thinking of using something like a pressure pulse fuel pump like used on outboards and go Karts.  I think just allowing a drop of water at a time into the intake will provide any carbon removal that may happen and has other benefits as well for the engine.

[sailawayrb]

Thanks Glort.  

Just to be scientifically accurate, my 240 deg F heating is accomplished to get the SVO (brand new Costco Soybean Oil) to a viscosity of about 5 centistokes which is about the viscosity of diesel at 80 deg F.  Going from memory here, so always best to check a good viscosity table for exact numbers.  While the viscosity of diesel is fairly constant across a wide temp range, the viscosity of SVO decreases significantly with temp.

I use to pull the head about once a year or so to check for carbon build up and ring wear.  Now I only pull it every couple years.  Even when running straight diesel, I use to get the typical black carbon build up.  Since using the LPG, I only get a light tan coating and it doesn't build up at all.  I posted about this here and/or on Lister Engine site many years ago.  The general consensus at the time was that the LPG creates more complete combustion and the H2O by product of LPG combustion essentially steam cleans the combustion chamber too.  I have never run WVO, but I would expect the results would be similar.

I have also observed that running a combination of SVO and LPG appears to make the engine run smoother and capable of higher power output than when just using straight diesel.  No exhaustive testing done here, just an observation that my 6/1 and ST5 was able to handle three 1500 Watt rated heaters without bogging down like it would when just using diesel.

I am still using my original injection pump.  I don't know if that would be the case if I didn't heat the SVO, but I don't know for sure that it wouldn't be either.  At the time it seemed like a prudent approach.  I was also concerned about having an unplanned shutdown while running SVO on a cold day.

Bob B.

[Mad_Labs]

Sorry, that went over my head... even the 2nd time I read it. 

Glort,

A heater designed for 100 watts at 120 volts will have a resistance of 144 ohms. A  heater designed for 100 watts at 12 volts will have a resistance of 1.44 ohms. So if you plug a 12V, 100 watt heater into 120 volts, it will draw 83 amps because 120 volts divided by 1.44 is 83.3. If we multiply amps time volts we get watts, in this case 10,000 watts. Into a 100 watt element, so *poof*.

Jonathan

[glort]

Just to be scientifically accurate, my 240 deg F heating is accomplished to get the SVO (brand new Costco Soybean Oil) to a viscosity of about 5 centistokes which is about the viscosity of diesel at 80 deg F.

The devil is in the details.
SVO ( new) is a totally different kettle of fish to WVO. Definitely much thinner and it makes sense you can get that to diesel Viscosity.
Is the oil you buy cheaper than diesel there?

Here in Oz, you'd be real lucky to get a 20L tin of blended crap malaysian oil  for under $35. Most oil, cottonseed, corn or Canola would be $40+ for 20L.  Diesel can be had even at it's most expensive in the cities for $1.50 L ( yes, $5.70 per US gal!!!)  and most of the time would be in the mid 30's to 40. 
As such, it's totally uneconomical to use new oil for fuel as is common in the UK with their high fuel prices and cheap veg oil.

LPG fumigation has a following amongst the Diesel 4WD'ers here.  There are lots of Dyno tests that show it does indeed add significant worthwhile power. There is a limit like with all diesels where the EGT gets too high but below that the power and diesel economy is improved.  LPG is a lot cheaper than Diesel here so the more LPG and the less diesel one uses, the cheaper their fuel costs.

There is a fleet of trucks that come past my house carrying shipping containers and as they bark up the hill, I see the LPG tanks on the side of them.  I haven't seen it on many trucks although it has been available for them for a long time but all the trucks in this companies fleet seem to have it. They are all older fords so maybe with the new euro spec Trucks and their over the top emissions monitoring computers, it's more difficult or impossible to fit.  Most if not all now use the Adblue exhaust supplement to reduce emissions so maybe LPG poses problems with that?

My friend had a late model Euro Truck and if the computer sensed the emissions were out of spec, it limited the thing to half power.
No big deal on the flats but going up a hill, it was almost dangerous.

[sailawayrb]

Glort, as I indicated, my experience is with SVO and not with WVO.  My use of SVO is largely for stealth and environmental reasons, with economics being a much lesser consideration.

Stealth because my engine currently runs in a dense suburban area and my neighbors would raise a fuss if they heard it, smelled it, or felt it.  So I run my engine on SVO and exhaust it into an underground cistern that subsequently vents to the surface only after a long journey via underground perforated plastic pipe.  The cistern and perforated pipe address the exhaust cooling and condensation issue.  There is zero smell, smoke, or sound where the pipe surfaces even when the temp is well below freezing.  My neighbors can't feel it because the engine is mounted on a resilient mount designed to achieve 98% vibration isolation.

Environmental because that is something my wife and I strongly believe is the right thing to do for the future of our planet.  Soybean oil can be obtained in the states for close to the same price as diesel.  Public demand can often determine what is the most economical solution in the future and we are big fans of encouraging the use of renewable resources to the maximum extent possible.  Along these lines, we started a company a couple years ago that specializes in passive solar and hydronic floor heating for buildings and the use of various water machines.  Our website has a DIY calculator section where you can find an isolation stand design calculator along with many other calculators that DIYers have told us they find very useful.

http://www.borstengineeringconstruction.com

We have been told many times that the calculator instructions on our website contain a wealth of useful information for DIYers.  Many so called "professionals" are not happy that we have openly shared so much information and encourage DIY projects.  To this we wholeheartedly say ..|..

Bob B.

[glort]

Thank you for the link Bob. I had a look and there are indeed several very useful calculators there that I wish I had known about before.

Please dont take this personally but the Environmental crowd have far from endeared themselves to me.
I have been doing Veg fuel for a long time now and I have never hidden the reason for my interest as being economical.  That has got me lambasted and ridiculed and insulted so many times by the green do gooders I have lost count.
They have all got their nose out of joint because I wasn't on the same save the planet bandwagon as they made out to be and therefore I was the bastard.

I don't know how many people I had come to see my setup over the years especially around the hey day of veg around the time of the China olympics. Fuel was expensive here then and those making a buck from it in conjunction with the media were in full flight. Even some of the people I helped turned to be with the in crowd and had a go at me because I was in it for the money not the ideals.

What really burnt me was in next to no time, all these lousy hypocrites had given away all their lofty ideas and gone back to regular fuels because veg was too hard and I suspect had fallen from grace as the trendy topic at cocktail parties. A lot of them also didn't like driving older cars that would run on Bio or WVO, they wanted something late model, trendy and fashionable with all the mod cons that made their vehicles exactly what they had so loudly protested months earlier.

There is only one guy I know from the early days when I got into it still doing it who was my mentor and now very good friend.  His motives were dual, Saving money and doing his bit for the environment.  He's still dedicated to it and has solar water heating and PV panels on his roof which he has put there at considerable cost because of his belief he stands by. He recently refurbished his house and the prime factor in all the materials he used was they be as enviro friendly as possible.

Unlike the other hypocritical band wagon jumpers and loud mouths, I'm still using renewable fuel and meeting THEIR goal of helping the environment in doing so. They weren't able to get it through their pompous skulls that the reason a person was using Veg was insignificant to the fact they were using it at all and for whatever reason, still met their goals.  All of these fakes have abandoned all that they held themselves out to be and berated me for not being, yet I'm the one that's stuck with it, not them.

Going back to the beginning or even the heyday of veg environmental mania, The only people I know that are still using veg, and I can count them on the one hand thats missing a finger, are the ones that did it for the cost saving. They didn't rant and rave and carry on about saving the planet although they have done 100 times more than those that did.

While I am not against saving the environment, I also don't give it much credibility.
Even though people like You and my friend go out of their way to do the right thing, the scale on which your and people like you have their efforts undermined is criminal.
Gubermints talk the good talk but then institute moronic plans and policies and actions that counteract the facade they propose 1000 times over.
Cash for Clunkers anyone? Here we have a mandated policy of ethanol in fuel which the gubbermint knows is more energy efficient and consumes more resources and emissions in production that regular petrol does. But of course they can say what comes out the tail pipe is clean ignoring the pile of crap they created hidden from view out at the landfill and in the atmosphere.

My brother in law runs a waste transfer facility near the city. The amount of brand new, perfect condition products that are dumped there is insane.  I picked up half a dozen brand new solar panel grid tie inverters off him last year, Dumped because they were the old model. Nothing other than cosmetics different to the new model mind you, they have the exact same circuitry, they just wanted to get rid of them because they were " Outdated" now in the way they looked. 
He gets everything from wrist watches to computer and electronic gear, Toiletries from hotels by the truck load because they changed their branding, Metal extrusions by  the semi trailer load, clothing, machinery, componentry containing all sorts of metals, Furniture, Kayaks, boat trailers,  solar panels, water heaters, kitchen appliances, mobile phones, Electric Motors, Timber and steel and automotive parts and equipment, all brand new in perfect condition just dumped. 


Just one load of this stuff is more resources wasted, more energy consumed and more emissions in manufacture than you and my mate will save in your lifetimes. And this isn't the exceptional, it's the norm, every single day, multiple times. Even the real rubbish they get there always contains a lot of packing materials, Wood, paper and cardboard at 50+ ton alone, just in that.  I go there and always think how at worst, this stuff could be fed into a boiler to drive a steam turbine and some benefit could be had from it in the way of electrical power.  Instead, it ALL goes to landfill except in the rare times when they have time to sort some of it into recycle bins for the metal.

Until gubbermints stop talking shite and actually do something real, Like banning this incredible wasteful dumping of perfectly good products, then every one else is just trying to put out a bush fire by pi$$ing on it. Don't matter how many people you have doing it, it's not going to make a bit of difference.

Sorry for the rant and I commend people like you who are serious and put yourselves out unlike so many other hypocrites.
It would just be nice if your efforts were supported by governments and industry instead of saying one thing with complete and utter contempt while they do the exact opposite to the public BS face they put on.