12V FRICTION STARTER......EVOLUTION

[mobile_bob]

Dave:

very cool indeed,
that starter has no issue spinning the engine up at all, at least no more so
than it would starting a hot chevy v8

i particularly like the part step for glowplug, nice touch!

looks like your alternator is mounted and ready for some testing, i look forward to your test results.

very nicely done!

bob g

[XYZER]

So far the only test on the alternator is from running the battery down trying to start it..... It will put out 40 amps charging the battery no problem....then taper right down to .2 amps. It seems to start harder with the glow plug than without....sitting outside and 25 degrees last night may contribute to some of the difficulties...the first negative I see with friction starters is....don't let things get wet or the friction is no more! There was a layer of frost on it this morning and I thought here is a good test for my glow plug...well it (moisture)will put the starter out of operation!...... What is a good 12 volt load to test it with Bob?

[WGB]

Nice work, Dave!  Your 12V starter sure has plenty of power, and looks like a smooth runner.  Congratulations on a job well done.  When you have time, some info on your engagement linkage arrangement/power switch would be fun to see. 

Ditto on the linkage, beautiful job!

[mobile_bob]

some of the windpower boys use a coil made up of electric fence wire, i guess it is some alloy of stainless
and works pretty well

i have also seen #9 clothes line wire used,

in either case start with a fairly long piece and coil it loosely.

you can always cut it shorter to increase the amps draw.

kinda crude but it works

i got lucky and found some heavy duty nichrome wound over ceramic units, each will draw about 30amps
so i can parallel them up to whatever i want.

to be honest i have not done much testing at 12volts, favoring first 24 volts and now 48volts
where i just feed the inverter and then plug in heaters to the inverter output.

having a 500amp shunt/guage to measure amps from the alternator going to the battery, with the inverter loaded
gives me a pretty accurate number.

do you have a 12volt inverter? maybe you can connect it to the battery and load the inverter? then measure what
amps are being delivered by the alternator to the battery and inverter/load?

if you do have an inverter, life will be much easier than messing with a load bank,

bob g

[XYZER]

do you have a 12volt inverter? maybe you can connect it to the battery and load the inverter? then measure what
amps are being delivered by the alternator to the battery and inverter/load?

if you do have an inverter, life will be much easier than messing with a load bank,

bob g

Yes I need a good inverter! I was thinking that would be my next step but hate commiting to 12 volt just yet........That will be my next step but I bet I end up at 24 volts......How many watts can you get with 12 volts....is there a 220v from 12 volt inverter?
Dave

[XYZER]

Well....I found a gremlin in my starter/alternator upgrade..... Before I added the goodies I had an easy to start any time "Listeroid".....I added a starter and glow plug and figured it would start in any condition....Well after all my mods and a couple of cold morning starts I came to the conclusion there was something up! It was a pig to get going even with 12 volt assist. I was starting to suspect the glow plug and went and looked the old one over with the new ones.... .....A BIG difference! In my hurry to get it going and the many other projects going on I didn't look over the new glow plugs very well  .....

See the difference....

My choices are machining the surface back or make a .270" spacer..........What do you think?
Dave

[Crofter]

I think perhaps better to space them back or you wind up with the ends of the glo plugs perhaps projecting too far into the spray patterns then have to make cute little tapered seat glo plug spacers to back them out.

I think Jens did some meditating on deciding how much of the glo plug tip should project and how much space to have around its tip. I went with about 1/4" projection and about 1/16 space but that depends on the glow plug and control circuit used. I modelled mine to be similar with my existing VW components.

At this point you have a number of directions to wiggle in!

[XYZER]

Jens,
All 3 are plugs. The original is the short one, the longer ones are CMD plugs with glow plugs installed. It appears either the increase in compression or it's interfering with the spray pattern is causing a starting issue. .... either way I figure I will duplicate the original and all will be fine....

[veggie]

"My choices are machining the surface back or make a .270" spacer..........What do you think?"

Short runs...or long continuous operation ?
If it's long duration operation, I suggest trimming them to the shorter length equivalent to having the COV valve all the way out.

veggie

[billswan]

xyzer

Could it be a coincidence and it is other problems like a gunked up injector nozzle causing starting problems?

Maybe you should pull the nozzle and reconnect it to the line and test the pattern. Maybe have the cracking pressure checked.

Seems the longer plug should raise compression or is the center really hollowed out a lot for the glow plug?

Billswan

[XYZER]

Bill,
The glow plug COV plugs are the same shape as the original. (1" radius if anyone needs to know) They protrude out .270" further than the original. I have already shortend one of the COV plugs with the glow plug......I'll be trying it out when I get home from work. I will look at some other things before I give it a try.....
Dave

[XYZER]

xyzer

Could it be a coincidence and it is other problems like a gunked up injector nozzle causing starting problems?

Maybe you should pull the nozzle and reconnect it to the line and test the pattern. Maybe have the cracking pressure checked.

Seems the longer plug should raise compression or is the center really hollowed out a lot for the glow plug?

Billswan

Anyone have a good visual description of a proper spay pattern? After chasing all possable hard starting causes I am looking at my injector. I need a good example to compare it to. My pattern appears a bit wet and not real misty.....

[BruceM]

Dave,
I also found that the Mico injectors don't have as nice of a pattern as my MB 300D injectors.  It is a fine spray pattern, but more a wet spray than the MB injectors which atomize the spray much more.  

This doesn't seem to adversely affect my starting and both of my Mico injectors have the same "marginal" pattern.  I switched to a new spare injector because I didn't like the pattern; it was identical.

I hope you can get to the bottom of your starting problem soon.  

Best Wishes,
Bruce

[billswan]

Xyzer

Well my 10/1 was acting up yesterday. blowing smoke when I thought it shouldn't.

Switched back to diesel from wmo, but still smoked.

Pulled the injector and cleaned the tip with a brass brush, it had some wet carbon on it.

Took my own advise and checked the pattern. It was a fine mist in a narrow v shape.

Surprised me I thought it looked good.

Reinstalled the injector and the problem was fixed, ran great on both diesel and straight waste motor oil.

So on mine just the carbon on the surface of the injector was the problem.

My guess is the way you explain your pattern you might need to service the injector.

Either the tip is bad or the leak down is to high or the cracking pressure is to low.

If you don,t have a injector shop close by that can test and set. maybe just order a whole injector from someone like Phil at CMD.

I believe he has tips to rebuild yours with if you have the tools to set the pressure.

Maybe there is some one here who knows the injectors better that can chime in with a better answer?

I thought some day i would get a couple new injectors for my 10/1 OMEGA and experiment with upping the cracking pressure to see if it would improve the way the engine burns WMO. Probably just kill the pump but the parts aren't that expensive unless a guy wipes out the cam lobe and roller lifter then it would be a pain to recover.
but I will still try it someday .

Billswan

[mobile_bob]

a few comments about injectors from memory

(and it is not as good as it used to be)

1. what looks good for a pattern in ambeint pressure, might look like crap at 500psi
much like a sparkplug that fires in open air but cannot must even a weak spark in a high compression engine
or even a stock engine when the condensor or coil got weak or bad.

you might try adjusting the pressure up a bit, and see if that helps

2. never use a metal brush on an injector tip, the spray hole(s) need that sharp edge to aid in dispersal of the injected
fuel, any rounding off of the edge of the exit of the hole will cause the fuel to follow the conture and not form the V properly

use acetone to soft the carbon and use a plastic bristle brush to remove it.

3. carbon at or around the holes, even in small amounts can adversely effect the spray pattern, causing a poor pattern, dribble
burn back into the hole, and other problems, that are compounded by 1 and 2 above.

thankfully an idi engine can tolerate a crappy injector better than a di engine can.

fwiw

bob g