12V FRICTION STARTER......EVOLUTION

[mobile_bob]

did some searching so maybe the difference between starters was abandoned by gm, i dunno for sure

however it is easy enough to check, the car starter used 4 brushes and 4 field pole shoes same as the pickup/truck version
but one pole shoe was left wanting for a coil.

i guess they saved maybe 50 cents in copper?

it appears you have had the drive end off, do you recall a missing field coil on one pole shoe?

if so you might benefit from the truck field set, it will fit your case just fine.

its been a number of years since this was the case, as i said they may have abandoned this practice, but if a diy'er is using
an old starter that has been laying around, he might wanna check it out?

heavy cables from the battery to the starter will make a significant improvment in starter torque and speed, and likely
be the difference in rolling over past compression and not doing so.

bob g

[veggie]

I'm in the middle of building my air starter at the moment and I have a question regarding torque.
There seems to be a lot of comments about driving the flywheel "through a compression stroke".
When starting my 6/1 by hand, I can crank the engine up to starting speed, remove the handle, and then release the decompression lever.
The inertia in the flywheels caries it past a couple of compression strokes and she fires up.
With the inertial of 2 X 200lb. flywheels spinning at 150 rpm (by the starter motor), I wonder if we need be concerned at all about having extra power for the compression stroke.?
(I'm talking about 6/1's here. I have no idea about the requirements of the 12/2's and 20/2's)

Cheers,
Veggie  

[mike90045]

I'm in the middle of building my air starter at the moment and I have a question regarding torque.
There seems to be a lot of comments about driving the flywheel "through a compression stroke".
When starting my 6/1 by hand, I can crank the engine up to starting speed, remove the handle, and then release the decompression lever.
The inertia in the flywheels caries it past a couple of compression strokes and she fires up.
With the inertial of 2 X 200lb. flywheels spinning at 150 rpm (by the starter motor), I wonder if we need be concerned at all about having extra power for the compression stroke.?
(I'm talking about 6/1's here. I have no idea about the requirements of the 12/2's and 20/2's)

Cheers,
Veggie   

I think it relates to not using the decompression at all, and if the starter can crank through the first compression it comes across, at 13 RPM

[Carlb]

I'm in the middle of building my air starter at the moment and I have a question regarding torque.
There seems to be a lot of comments about driving the flywheel "through a compression stroke".
When starting my 6/1 by hand, I can crank the engine up to starting speed, remove the handle, and then release the decompression lever.
The inertia in the flywheels caries it past a couple of compression strokes and she fires up.
With the inertial of 2 X 200lb. flywheels spinning at 150 rpm (by the starter motor), I wonder if we need be concerned at all about having extra power for the compression stroke.?
(I'm talking about 6/1's here. I have no idea about the requirements of the 12/2's and 20/2's)

Cheers,
Veggie  

Veggie,
The problem is that your air starter will not have the flywheels up to speed before you hit the compression stroke therefor you do not have the inertia of the fast spinning flywheels to push it through the compression stroke.  I am using a GAST 4am air motor and it will not pull my 6/1 through compression from a dead stop

Carl.

[BruceM]

Veggie, As you suggest, there's really no need for the power to start without releasing compression.  The Gast 4AM will continue to pull the engine through compression once up to speed. (The 2AM a little less so but still adequate.)  It would only be a convenience for a very non-technical operator, one less thing to do.

For my remote-auto start setup, I still don't mind having to use decompression to start, as decompression control is good insurance (in addition to the rack closer) for emergency shut down.

I'm glad I didn't have to tackle a twin.

[XYZER]

it appears you have had the drive end off, do you recall a missing field coil on one pole shoe?

bob g

Bob,
I have had it apart several times but my photographic memory didn't pay attention.....I will have it apart again when I do a final fit and paint. I'll take the time and give it a look see.....

Dave

[mobile_bob]

Xyzer:

ok i did a bit of digging, the two starters can be told apart by looking at the end of the solenoid
the standard starter has a copper strap coming out and attaching directly to the lower post of the solenoid
with a small hex screw, the high torque version is the same but is spaced out away about 3/4" and uses
a 3/4" copper tube spacer and a longer hex head screw to attach the copper strap to the post.

that should aid in identifying which starter you have.

you might also take a look for giggles when you have it apart, most especially if it does not have the 3/4" spacer
just to see if is is short one field coil too.

bob g

[XYZER]

Xyzer:

ok i did a bit of digging, the two starters can be told apart by looking at the end of the solenoid
the standard starter has a copper strap coming out and attaching directly to the lower post of the solenoid
with a small hex screw,

Bob,
I've got one like that.

the high torque version is the same but is spaced out away about 3/4" and uses
a 3/4" copper tube spacer and a longer hex head screw to attach the copper strap to the post.

that should aid in identifying which starter you have.

So the high torque version must have a longer field housing? Or did they move the copper power strap back?

you might also take a look for giggles when you have it apart, most especially if it does not have the 3/4" spacer
just to see if is is short one field coil too.

bob g

I'll look it over the next time I have it apart......I might even look for a high torque verson if it is a direct bolt on.
While I have your attention and not wanting to contaminate this thread I want to gleen some info from you on the balmar mc 612 and a Leece Nevllie(sp) alternator. Maybe another thread.....
Dave

[vdubnut62]

I had a starter rebuilder tell me if I really wanted a stout starter (lots of torque) use a 12 volt starter armature and a set of 6 volt field windings.
I guess this applies to Delco. The antique tractor guys run 6 volt starters on 12 volts all the time, I don't notice a decrease in starter life,
but they sure will spin an engine.
Ron

[XYZER]

I am getting close to a test fire of my friction starter and Leece Neville 110-555 alternator addition. The starter works super. It will not push it through compression if it is coming up on TDC but if you roll the flywheel back so it has a little run it does great. The alternator install may have a design flaw with the serpentine belt and how much contact area it has. I will need to get a load on the alternator and see how big of an issue it will be or if it is one at all. My pulley will turn the alternator around 4200 rpm.  I picked up one of these http://www.bogartengineering.com/trimetric.htm to be able to measure the 12v amps to be able to monitor the charge rate. What is an easy way to apply a 12volt load to check the performance? At present I have just 1 Optima 12volt for a starting battery. What is an easy way to apply a good 12 volt load? I'll post pics and a video of the final project over Christmas!

[XYZER]

Well it is done......It aint KISS no more.....I still have troubles with the thumbnail posts!...someday I'll get it!
I can see a few things I would do differently the next time but it sure works good for a first try. The alternater has a dissconect switch that will aid with no load when I start it (thanks Bob!). It appears to have plenty of belt contact on the pulley. I have no slippage pulling 40amps.....need to load the alternator to see if it will work under a full load.

View of the starter


View of the starter pedal and switches


Leece Neville 110-555 JHO large frame 160 amp addition......


Now that I have 12v I added a 12v fan and adjustable thermostat.

                     
No more KISS.............Here is the thing in action.......

Merry Christmas!!!!!
Dave

[BruceM]

Nice work, Dave!  Your 12V starter sure has plenty of power, and looks like a smooth runner.  Congratulations on a job well done.  When you have time, some info on your engagement linkage arrangement/power switch would be fun to see. 

[veggie]

Dave,
That's an excellent job you did there.
Very clean and tidy.
Very well done!
Is your alternator driven by an automotive belt or is that the industrial "J" poy-v belt you were previously evaluating?

Veggie

[XYZER]

Veggie,
Thanks!

It is a 6 rib automotive....I think they refer to is as an H section?

Dave

[mbryner]

Beautiful!