Putting together a container home/shop for transportation to a remote site

[Westcliffe01]

Moderators, I hope this is the right place, else move it if needed..

I am looking at finally making my move out West a little over a year from now.  I was all set on Custer Co Colorado, but with recent political events, I may have to re-think my location.  Regardless, the goal is the same.  Find a county that does not enforce a building code or restrictive ordinances, lots of winter sunshine and wind.  Looking for elevation to be 5000ft or more for low humidity.  Trying to avoid the very arid (and hot) south west.  Until December last year, Custer County filled every requirement.

The land that I can afford has no utilities and private roads.  That translates to 2 tracks...  It is about a 20 min drive under ideal weather conditions to the nearest town which has an ACE hardware store and a supermarket.  To "serious" shopping it is a little over an hour and a half in summertime.   So to avoid a LOT of wasted effort and the resultant drastic shortening of the already 6-7 month building season, I intend to put together a 40 foot Hi Cube container that has all the basic amenities needed for survival in those sort of circumstances.   

The goal is to insulate the inside with 3-4" of spray foam onto purlins welded to the inside and then sheathed in plywood to make it easy to hang/attach things to the walls.  I was going to do a few partitions, one for a small living area with a bunk bed, kitchenette and shower, a second "utility" area to house the diesel genset, diesel fired hot water heater and a hot water storage tank that is tied into the genset and hot water heater.  Finally a shop area with my welder, bridgeport style mill, drill press, workbench and things arranged in such a manner to allow a vehicle to be parked inside when leaving the site to discourage theft.

I will have my F250, gooseneck flatbed trailer, loader backhoe and potentially a UTV all at the site.  I figure that for material shopping / pickup trips I would be using the F250 and trailer on a regular basis.  The loader backhoe will do most of the site prep/septic and for lifting and moving things.  The item most at risk for theft/joyriding would be the UTV and that is also the easiest to park.

I will probably be working off site during the winter to help fund the following construction season.  In the first season, I need to get the septic system in, then the barn foundation and slab and finally the barn itself.  I am looking at doing a steel barn of modest height, insulated with spray foam insulation.  The primary heating system in the barn will be radiant heat in the slab, provided by a diesel fired boiler augmented by a series of solar collectors.  I will probably put in a large size wood stove to take the chill off when working in the barn, but the idea is to keep all the equipment above freezing and out of the weather/sight.   I'm considering whether I should plan to move the container onto the slab  once it is done, then put up the barn structure.  The heating and power would come from the utility systems in the container until they finally get their own home.  It may not be a bad idea in the long term to keep the genset isolated to contain the noise and fuel to a specific area.

So here is my reasoning: I need to move most of the possessions to the site anyhow.  It seems that moving a container is one of the less expensive ways to get things from point A to point B.  The container itself is about $3800.  It looks like the surface to be insulated is about 1400 sq ft.  About 1040 sqft will need to be panelled with at least 1/2" plywood or OSB.   I can work out the cost for the paneling pretty quick, but I'm not sure how to determine the cost of the spray foam job.

Loading and unloading the container at each end could be problematic because from the high trucks a crane is usually needed since the large forklifts otherwise needed are not found near small towns.  Possibly one could find someone with a tilt trailer to do the job, but that may be harder to organize.

So what do you think ?  The alternative seems to be hiring a lot of work out, which can be pretty expensive in a relatively remote place.  Or leaving a lot of equipment and materials relatively unsecured every time you leave site ?   I could possibly get a second (unfinished) container closer to the destination purely for storage and possibly to use as a second structural member of the barn, basically roof over the pair of 40 foot containers, put the roll up door at one end and a wall at the other.  My thought was to let the containers carry only the roof loads and put perimeter walls around the outside of the containers so that there is no thermal break to the outside.

[mobile_bob]

you don't mention the distance you need to move, so i will make a guess and figure 1500miles

i was going to do exactly what you have in mind a few years ago, however the cost of moving "your" container is quite high!  you will have to find a trucking company that will haul it, and you will have to have a chassis to put it on as well so that it can be hauled.

the chassis will set you back a couple grand for a useable roller, and you might have to spend a few bucks on it to make it road worthy enough for the company to haul it.

then when you find a company to hook and take it to colorado, good luck finding one that will not want to charge you for the return bobtail trip, because they don't have a trailer to return with they cannot haul freight on the backhaul.

the best bid i could get was 8600bucks from tacoma wash to central kansas

for me that was not going to happen, so ...

i contacted a broker who could drag out a container and set it, complete with chassis
leave it for a month for me to load, then they came and got it, put it on a union pacific train, shipped by rail to kansas city, had another truck deliver to my site, where i had a week to unload it, and then they sent another trucker to come get the empty container and chassis... total cost was 3300 bucks iirc and they brought me a 53 footer that was a high cube too which provide more space.

i then bought a 40ft container and had it set at my location prior to delivery, i drove out and met the truck and had a forklift dropped off for a few days and transferred the stuff,,, some 43k lbs of iron was in that thing.

it would have been so nice to have been able to have built the thing in tacoma, and had it moved to kansas, but the cost was just prohibitive.  the problem is magnified
when you consider the real expense of having your loaded container picked up and sat on a chassis for transport and then removed and sat gently in colorado!  this you are talking big bucks because you just don't pick them up with a standard forklift and move them... think two huge all terrain lifts at your end and two at the other end of the trip,,, plus mileage from the nearest location they are likely to be at, plus pickup and delivery charges of these lifts and the manpower to operate those lifts (both ends)

all this could be done for a price, but that price just proved to be too much in my opinion.

fwiw

i sat my 40ft container down on a bed of fist sized rock, to provide for drainage, this container made the back wall of my 24x40ft shop.  i put up a 6ft pony wall ontop of the edge of the container, poured a concrete slap and built my shop to adjoin it with a single slope shed roof with the pony wall having clerestory windows to let in the winter southern exposure sunlight.  later i added a second shed roof below those windows toward the south and out 20 ft to cover the container (8ft) plus provide me with a covered area for storing stuff for the garden and lawn.

that container makes for a very solid spine to the building, high winds which we get here don't shake anything at all. those same winds will cause our two story house to wiggle a bit, but not that shop!  of course the container weighs about 8-9klbs empty and has maybe 20klbs of tooling mounted in it.   that makes for a good anchor.

good luck with the project

btw... lest i forget

union pacific was the only rail line i could use to ship personal stuff,  burlington northern sante fe will not ship personal items....something you should know.   i don't know about eastern rail lines, but after 911 some are real picky what they will accept for shipment.  having a broker that has a commitment to ship a certain number of containers per month or year is a huge benefit, such a broker can make things happen that us mortals only dream of and do it at very competitive prices. 

bob g

[Thob]

As I set here in Texas, I think about moving to Wyoming.  I've been to Westcliffe, Co; the scenery is very nice there.  But I'm not sure about the politics either.  Of course with Wyoming, you have to watch out for the wind; 40 MPH can be just a "breeze" there.

If I were doing it, I would split it into two 20' containers.  One for living and one for everything else.  I've already spent too much time smelling fumes from paint, machine oil, engines, etc.  I prefer to have my sleeping quarters somewhere totally separate from the work/engine area.

I've seen some company around here that moves containers - they have a truck specially build for the job.  It has hydraulic lift, along with steerable wheels that have hydraulic motors on them.  They can drive up with the truck and move the container just about anywhere.  I don't remember the name of the company nor do I know if they will work with private individuals. 

Also check with a company named "PODS" - portable, on demand storage.

[Westcliffe01]

Bob, I recall your move, but you ended up moving to where there was an existing home.  I did quite a bit of study on this and quite a few containers make the transit west to east down I70 and I80.  Denver is the nearest major hub.  I was thinking of just going with a regular "lowbed" type truck and foregoing the specialized container type trailers.  The few articles I read the owner hired a regular crane and they just lifted it on and off and the truck drove under it to load or out at the end.  Lowbeds can take a lot of different loads so they are not stuck looking for a container to go back the other way.  Crane hire seemed to average about $700 at each end.

ThoB, the CO political issues are in Denver, not in Custer Co.  But it looks like there could shortly be a >15 round magazine ban in the State of CO and that would be a giant PIA for those of us with "ugly" weapons.  I have a FAL and 2 Galils and there are not many options for <16 round magazines.

Custer Co has a lot going for it.  Low priced real estate, large min lot sizes, right to farm law, modest property taxes (even better if engaged in "legitimate" agricultural activities), county government that is not empire building and in fact are firing all the wannabe empire builders one at a time.  They just booted the director of the local clinic after a crazy period where they blew the budget and hid it, canceled the bid to seek compliance with a federal program chasing FED $, fired the "Airport Authority board" and took the airport back under the management of the (mainly voluntary) county government.  It seems there are few places left in the US where they want their autonomy and intend to live without federal money.  Did I mention no building code ?  No building inspectors ?  Septic and well permits are handled by the state due to the way the water rights work.  Electrical inspection is handled by the state too, I'm not sure yet if I will need one if I am not connected to the grid.

[LowGear]

Ah, the fantasies of an old man.  Many of us have been here or there as we step onto the long loading dock that has the slight downward slope.

I assume you've checked out google and youtube with shipping container housing in the search criteria.  There's a lot of neat stuff out there.

I too remember the move of Kansas Bob.  One giant step for the kid from Tacoma, bla, bla, bla.  His lesson to me was "Stay Flexible and Win!"

Finding a container close to the destination that will met your needs sounds really smart to me.  They move and locate much easier when empty.  If you've ever seen the two containers set parallel with roof trusses between them it'll be hard to not adopt some of it's efficiency into your plan.  If I were going to the land of significant weather - below 40 and above 80 degrees I'd be looking for one or two of those insulated aluminum freezer / cooler units and maybe even keep their HVAC system for my comfort.  You might be surprised what a heavy duty tilt bed tow truck can do with an empty container.  Once on the ground you can do quite a bit with ancient Greek and Roman applied science - the inclined plane accompanied by the roller.

Keep us posted on your progress - Please.  Your adventure is our adventure.

Casey

I have to ask.   

I was all set on Custer Co Colorado, but with recent political events, I may have to re-think my location.

What the Heck could the politicians do that would impact your vision of freedom?

[Westcliffe01]

http://current.com/1u988kc
House approves high-capacity magazine ban, despite GOP objections

Posted on: 11:16 am, February 15, 2013, by Eli Stokols, updated on: 06:41pm, February 15, 2013

DENVER — The first of four Democratic gun proposals to be heard Friday, a ban on high-capacity magazines, cleared the statehouse on an initial voice vote around 3 p.m. after a six-hour debate.

"Over the course of the last four or five years, we've had 34 mass shootings using high capacity magazines," said Rep. Rhonda Fields, D-Aurora, whose district includes the Century 16 theater where 12 people were killed in a mass shooting last July.

"That is the common thread we see in these massacres. They're using these high-capacity magazines so they can unload as many bullets as they can to kill as many people as they can, in our schools, in our theaters and in our churches."

A parade of Republicans took to the well Friday to speak at length in opposition to every aspect the bill; but the Democratic majority, with at least three members breaking ranks and voting against House Bill 1224, passed the measure on second reading over those sustained objections.

"If you vote for this bill, you are gambling on the safety of Coloradans," said Minority Leader Mark Waller, R-Colorado Springs. "There is no evidence that banning these magazines will have any positive impact on public safety and you are taking them away from responsible, law-abiding citizens."

Republicans also focused attention on Boulder-based Magpul Industries, the $400 million magazine manufacturer now threatening to leave Colorado if this ban becomes law; and, five hours into the debate, the House GOP informed reporters that a Magpul supplier, Alfred Manufacturing, may also have to move its Denver plant, and 150 jobs there, to another state.

Democrats amended the bill to allow Magpul to continue to manufacture high-capacity magazines in Colorado for sale in other states, but the company remained opposed to the ban.

Republicans argued that the amendment, which would enable the continued use of magazines of more than 15 clips elsewhere, illustrated hypocrisy.

"Now we know what this bill is really about," said Rep. Jerry Sonnenberg, R-Sterling. "It's all about the money! Is that what this bill's about? That we don't care about other people across the country?"

Democrats said they're simply striving to find a balance that protects affected businesses while improving public safety.

"This represents us listening to a constituency base," said Rep. Joe Salazar, D-Thornton.

Rep. Chris Holbert, R-Parker, referred to the amendment as "the oops amendment", arguing that Democrats forgot about the impact on businesses when drafting the bill.

The strident opposition to House Bill 1224, one of the two measures the House GOP entered the day with hope of defeating, presaged a long floor fight over the four Democratic gun control measures that Is expected to last late into the night and possibly Saturday morning.

Republicans began the day hoping they can find five Democrats to vote against the bill and help kill it; at least four Democrats have expressed reservations but House Speaker Mark Ferrandino is confident that the high-capacity magazine ban will pass the House at the end of this long debate.

One moderate Democrat who Republicans needed to vote against the bill, Rep. Mike McLachlan of Durango, had already voted for the ban during the House Judiciary Committee hearing on Tuesday.

On Friday, he strode to the well to inform his colleagues he'd be doing so again.

"I rise in support of this bill," said McLachlan, a Vietnam Vet who narrowly won a GOP-leaning district last November, sounding the unofficial death knell for the GOP's attempted filibuster.

"No constitutional right, even the Second Amendment, is absolute."

Following the voice vote on the high-capacity ammunition ban, lawmakers immediately began debating House Bill 1226, which mandates background checks on all gun purchases in the state that is also sponsored by Fields.

The other measures before the House Friday, or perhaps early Saturday morning, include legislation to force gun buyers to pay for those background checks and a ban on concealed weapons on college campuses.

I have to ask.   

I was all set on Custer Co Colorado, but with recent political events, I may have to re-think my location.

What the Heck could the politicians do that would impact your vision of freedom?

[SteveU.]

Ah yes. Nothing truer that the old, old wisdom, "No matter where you go - there you are."
A Vietnam War era contemporary of mine went from the US to Cananda - after a few years too nanny state intrusive he said.
Then on to Tahiti? Samoa? Few years more, still too intusive he said with thier police and laws and regulations. That time he got himself splayed out in the press for his objective activism there.
Then he was on to  New Zealand.  Married? I think. Two adult children eventually had to take over his core alt-energy business to keep it operating and disavow themselves from his activism. He is still objecting to intusive "worldwide" statism - now too old and too crippled up to root up and move again. Plus, I do not think any other new country with his history would have him now.

He never did learn his real problem was that fellow in the mirror he would never, ever be able to get away from. The fellow with the big yappy mouth who could not even learn to go local and blend in the big, wide open spacious very varied climate USA PNW.

Once you are past a station wagon/pick up truck worth of readily move away "Rambling Man", "stuff" you must get to know and come to peace with that fellow in the mirror if you want to put down actual roots and keep collecting stuff or you will always be offending the already living there locals no matter where you go.
Even the local moose, bear and elk will complain about your intrusive ways unless you can learn to blend in local.
And they have badged enforcement officers on thier side who will come and find you.

Regards
Steve Unruh

[Thob]

You mention a truck, flatbed trailer and loader/backhoe.  How much does an empty 20' container weigh?  Is it within your capability to transport an empty container to the site, and use the loader to drag it off and move it around some?  As Casey mentioned - you can do a lot with some pipe as rollers.  I know, that still leaves you with getting all your stuff moved; but it might be less expensive to DIY the whole move?  Last time I checked, loader/backhoes weigh in the 8,000 lb+ range.

[Westcliffe01]

Steve, I'm not sure how to interpret your post.  You do understand that the recent NY state and now CO laws are unprecedented ?  This goes much further than the original AWB.  Potentially millions of people are going to become felons through the mere possession of certain weapons or magazines, regardless how long they have owned them in a law abiding way or that they have harmed no-one.  Get convicted and say bye bye to your right to own firearms forever.  How does one even travel from East to West through some of these states without being a felon, despite the federal "transportation" law ?

ThoB, I think you forget that I own and have to move all of the stuff I planned on putting in the container.   If I don't put it in the container, then I have to move it inside an enclosed truck and that is even more expensive than the options I have been considering.

FYI, High cube containers are not available in 20 footers.  I considered taking a 40 footer and cutting it in half to make 2 20 footers, but someone said that is a project in of itself, and I think they are correct.

The problem with the reefers is that they are heavier, the cooling equipment on them runs I believe on 480V and needs way more power than makes sense in an off the grid scenario.  In addition, with all the insulation and cladding you have to run all wiring etc on the surface, whereas if you insulate your own container you can bury all of that stuff in the walls.   My experience is that it is not a good idea to do basic infrastructure projects "in the wild".  The idea is to put together the first container here in MI where I have access to tools material etc, and get everything set up and tested.   Next winter will be an ideal opportunity to test to see if all systems work as intended without any support from the grid.  I am not allowed to have a shipping container on my property here in Napoleon, but I can put it (and intend to build it) on a nearby sheep farm where I provide predator control services.

The extra headroom afforded by a high cube container will be very helpful in loading and unloading some of my equipment.  It can be moved in the container with a set of pallet forks (provided it is well leveled) and my loader backhoe will have a set of forks with which I can lift up to a ton.   For some of the bigger pieces, I am sure I can get the assistance of one of the local ranchers with a bigger machine than I have.   I have also worked out of "regular" shipping containers on construction sites and the limited headroom is a pain.  It all sounds good until you install light fixtures overhead, then suddenly your head is pretty close to things.  Insulating and paneling will also reduce headroom by close to 4" to start with.

I can do site prep before the container arrives.  I can place it next to where the barn will go, so that after the slab is laid, moving it onto the slab can be done with winches and rollers.  I was in the engineering corps, we moved some pretty ridiculous stuff...

[TimSR2]

It's starting to sound like a prepper forum... 

[Westcliffe01]

Hey, my container is going to have a real hardcore cogen system in it.  There will not be any "backup" other than a wood stove...  If I'm not running the genset for power tools, then hot water will be maintained by a diesel fired Toyotomi water heater and that will allow the container to be heated for extended periods provided the thermostat is kept low and the solar panels keep the batteries charged.

Yes, I'm "prepping" but not in the doomsday sense like what they show on TV.   If I was younger I would go to Alaska, but I'm not sure I can deal with that much winter anymore.  There are plenty of places in this country to go if you want more distance from cities and less participation in the consumer society.  I'm just less partial to heat and humidity, thus some altitude does me well.  Finding communities who are not simply pursuing the last $ they can get by any means is not that easy.  The folks in Custer county have been doing a good job, but as usual the only news publication there is being infiltrated with liberals too.

When I get myself set up, I will have a pretty decent shop for fabrication or machining and a bit of sheet metal work and sandblasting/painting.  I will have probably the only coordinate measurement machine in a 75 mile radius...  I am an inventor with 3 US patents and about another 6 applications in process.  I don't need to be anywhere specific to to what I do and I intend to continue in a place of my own choosing.  In the short term, I may have to work offsite in winter to bank enough money to have a good summer building season the following year.   Once I have a paid off passive solar home and little in the way of utilities, I intend to work from home.

[LowGear]

Quote from: LowGear on Today at 12:08:10 PM
I have to ask.   
Quote
I was all set on Custer Co Colorado, but with recent political events, I may have to re-think my location.
What the Heck could the politicians do that would impact your vision of freedom?
Posted on: Today at 12:08:10 PM
Posted by: LowGear

Please tell me there's a way to UnAsk or DeAsk.

Good Luck with your move. 

Adiós,

Casey

[M61hops]

Hi Westcvliffe01, welcome to the forum!  What about buying a 25' to 53' reefer trailer?  Or maybe 2 as a start on the structure?  Load your stuff inside and tow them to your new place.  Maybe buy a tractor to tow them yourself and then sell the truck after you have the trailers parked where you want them?  Just a thought.  If I wanted a new house I would seriously think about using a reefer trailer because they are already insulated and of sturdy construction.  If you are sure you will stay in one location you could lower the floor height down close to ground level by backing the wheels into a hole or even take the axels and landing gear off.                  Leland

[LowGear]

Aloha M61hops,

Nice tweak.  I know the insulated - refrigerated container is good idea but I think your semi trailer is even a click or two better as long as you're staying on the same continent.  Dig a pit and move in.  Build a deck over the drive ramp.

Casey

[Westcliffe01]

A reefer trailer cannot be compared to a shipping container as a structure.  I see on Ebay that one can buy them for a similar price range.  They come with a diesel engine which runs the cooling system, but typically those engines have over 13k by the time you are buying them.  I'm not sure what the difference in price would be if you get someone with a semi to haul just your trailer vs their own lowbed that can then take a different load back home and I could schedule my trip west around when he can schedule his load to haul back east.  Timing wise I am reasonably flexible.

But afterwards, the trailer would not be comparable vs a container.  The trailers are lightly built, the deck is way off the ground making loading and unloading problematic.  I can't see them being in any way integrated into any structure.  I would be stuck with selling it afterwards and I would have to figure out how to secure machines inside that may weigh up to 5000lb individually so that they are secure in transport.  In addition, getting inside a road trailer can be done with hand tools, as opposed to getting into a shipping container which needs power tools in most cases.

At this point, unless it somehow becomes viable to have a contractor come out and put in a metal building, I am sticking to the container plan.  After doing some searching I finally found the website of the steel building company that I like, Flexospan.com  I will look at having them draw up plans for a steel barn with a shed style roof that is structurally simple while allowing the best use of natural light and heavy gauge roofing and siding to carry wind and snow loads.  I want a roof that is safe for me to install and work on, and that rules out steeply pitched roofs.  I was going to go with an earth bermed structure anyhow.  I have been trying to get a handle on the cost of sprayed on PU insulation, but there seems to be wild fluctuations in price by locality.  I assume this is in response to local competition, lack thereof or outright collusion to keep the prices high....  I have heard prices all the way from $6000 to over $17k for similar sized buildings so at some point I may have to evaluate the cost of the equipment to see if DIY is an option.  My location will be at least 90 min drive from even a modest size city and at least 2 hours from Colorado springs, so I'm assuming any contractor that has to make that trip is going to make you pay...