Leece Neville model query

[bentcrafter]

Yup, a noob.

First & foremost... what fantastically informative forum. I spent several weeks just clickin' & reading.

I'm gathering all the pieces to assemble yet another mini-gen. This time I managed to score two LN's. Well, one is for sure, but the second, although cosmetically identical, is labeled Starco Corporation Model #LN-515, 12V/100A. The genuine Leece Neville I'd like to use carries model #A008815LCF 14V/145A. I've already DL'ed the data sheet (output chart) from Prestolite.

Question is, what is the difference between my 8815LCF, and this 110-555JHO everyone is clammering about? I did DL the sheet on it too, and don't see much difference. Also, where can I score brushes for this one?

2nd Question: If my numbers are correct and my glasses are clean, I'm reading about 1330W @ 2000 RPM's. Problem is, I need 24V, not the rated 14V. So what's the best approach here to see 24V @ 2000 RPM without resorting to pulley swapping & belts, or adding more throttle? My storage is 4 x 210Ah golf cart batteries in series. I also have a single Sanyo 186W bifacial (rated @ 65 Voc) feeding a Morningstar 15A MPPT. The mini-gen I'm building, of course, will be my backup.

Thanks again, Kenny

[mobile_bob]

welcome to the board Kenny

now to your questions

i can't find any info on either alternator, can you provide a link to either one?

we can probably get something sorted out for you

what part of the world are you from?   
have you already bought either or both of these alternators?

if you can't find a link, can you post a picture of either?

bob g

[bentcrafter]

Hi Bob,

Ok, I posted bogus info - an age thing unfortunately.

Try: A0018815LCF

http://www.prestolite.com/pgs_products/specs.php?item_detail_id=235&item=A0018815LCF&product=ALTERNATOR



I don't have specs for the Starco yet - Not surprising it's absent on Prestolite's site, but just might reveal itself under a completely different LN part number. I did try various model # combos, but zip. Probably doesn't matter anyway as I suspect the LN 8815LCF is a better choice.

Yes, I have both units here. Will do a photo shoot tomorrow.  I'm closer to ID than I care to admit.

[SteveU.]

Hi Kerry/bentcraft
Well the one u nit for sure is a Leece Neville designed "JB" unit. JB being the alpha sufiix on the original more common model ID's of 2300JB up through 2800JB series of medium duty truck and school bus alternators. If you are anywhere in the world with auto electric rebuild shops ask for a set of LN "JB" brushes. They are individual round captive spring type. You an easily E-Bay search by this LN JB brushes description.
The 110-555JHO was originally a Motorola painfully long evolved design until rock solid for these same markets usages with marine, mining and hazardous environments usage also possible due to the enclosed brushes unitized package. This was the top of the line Motorola unit. LN "JB's" were toward the bottom of the line of the Leece Neville product line with much more expensive, heavier  Fire Truck, Motor Coach/Transit Bus, Military units available.
If your use was 12 volt system units are comparable with the more iron in the rotor and stator and having more pole count Motorola having a very noticeable inservice low RPM output edge and much better diode heatsinking to live doing this. Make sure this series of LN is getting lots of the coolest air possible in it's ass end. Many stupid 6V92 installs mounted the alternator right up against the hot side of the exhaust turbo! Then blame the alternator!
See here unit pictured differences and superimposed outputs:
http://www.prestolite.com/literature/alts/PP1129_in_wallchart.pdf
The 8LHA2070VB is a 110-555. The 2670LC is your LN equivalent.

Confusing product line and numbering system as the consolidation of three perviously compeditive companies in Motorola Automotive divested out and sold to Prestolite; then Prestolite "merging" with larger Leece Neville.

If you actually do want 24 volt use I'd suggest trading/selling the LN's for somthing that had an original 24 volt model possibility (as far as I know this series of LN's was never offered as 24V)  like the 8LHA "Loadhandler" Motorola units M-B recommends. Be a #110-446 in inch terminals and mounting holes. #110-466 and #110-459 in higher output metric spec terminals and mounting holes.

Regards
Steve Unruh

[mobile_bob]

it really depends one what your end goals are and what effort you want to go to in attaining them.

the reason i like the 110-555 is because the stator has more poles, it has less iron and uses less copper
all of which work to reduce IR losses, core losses, and XL losses

the 110-555 is a delta connected stator also which reduces resistance

resistance of the stator is the predominate loss in these alternators, after the rectifiers which we can't do much about anyway.

the 555jho is a 12volt nominal alternator, of about average efficiency when used in 12volt service, however it can be used in a 24volt system as well as anything up to 48volts (if the diodes are changed out for higher piv units) the end result is dramatically higher efficiencies.

there is a white paper here on the forum which explains what is needed to do this.
it can be found here

http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=157.0


the problem with the JB series is their much thicker core stack in the stator, which requires probably twice or more the copper than that of the 555jho, this increases resistance, added iron causes more issues with core losses, and the XL losses are higher.  they run very hot at higher voltages, probably ok at 24 but will not survive well at 48volts without water cooling (another whole topic) all this heat
results in lower efficiency when used at higher voltages.

to use the jb alternators as described in the white paper you will need to remove the regulator and install a block off plate which has two terminals to directly connect to the brushes. you will need a controller/regulator such as the balmar (expensive) or a sterling (reasonable) and also follow the schematic in the white paper to the letter... you will also need a 12volt isolated excitation source unless you use a 24/12 dc/dc converter (which is a viable option, just make sure it is capable of producing about 10amps at 12volts)

while you can certainly use what you have, i would strongly suggest selling those units, and buying new 110-555jho alternators, they can be had for $149.95 on ebay right now.. and i think they will ship them for free.  if your plan is using your engine driven alternator much of the time, the fuel savings will soon pay for the price of the alternator.

also note

some of the jb alternators stators are wye connected to get the cutin rpm down very low, the result is twice the resistance in the stator, which equates to reduced efficiencies.\

the 110-555jho family of alternators are all delta connected, however
the 24volt versions are for the most part wye connected with the result being twice the resistance and
lower efficiency.

this is why i like the 110-555jho, this stator resistance is very low and really aides in increasing efficiency at higher voltages, however you do have to spin the alternator faster to get to charging.

so its all in what you want to do, what are your goals, what compromises are you willing to accept
and how much effort you want to go to.

if you want simple, just buy a 24volt alternator and belt it up and then accept a lower efficiency
which might be acceptable if you don't plan on using it often.

if on the other hand fuel efficiency is of paramount importance, then read the white paper and apply
it to your project, the difference in fuel savings is very significant and will soon pay for the complete system in fuel savings if you plan on running long hours.

good luck

bob g

[bentcrafter]

Appreciate the insight Gents,

I did read the pdf suggested some weeks back. In fact, I first discovered the link to it on Fieldline - then bounced over here to DL it. Great read, but the higher RPM required discouraged me.

I wasn't fixated or expectant on these older LN alternators. I just happened across them some months back for insignificant change, not knowing whether or not if they were even suitable. Clearly no loss, and it's appreciated learning that before wasting the time and $ when there's better choices.

I'm not, nor have I ever been fond of belts. I certainly won't argue the ease & advantages of RPM & load matching, but grit my teeth knowing there's losses associated with such drives. So yes, efficiency is paramount - and if I need to spend more to get it, I will.

* I'm determined to limit the target RPM to no more than 1800-2200. I have a highly modified 200cc motor that I'm using, so the power source won't change. That means I need to find a suitable direct-drive alternator to match it.

* 1-1.5kW (about 30A @ 28V) continuous would be nice, but that's not a rigid goal, and certainly not an expectation. Efficiency & reliability matters here, so I'm willing to accept 'hits' elsewhere to achieve it.





     

 

[mobile_bob]

a well engineered belt drive should be no more than about 2% loss
and well under that as described in the white paper.

the gains in efficiency above that of operating at its native voltage and at lower
rpm far outweigh any losses attributed to the belt drive.

in other words,

for example the 555 is about 54% efficient (average) into a 12volt battery bank
and will be very nearly 80% efficient into a 24volt bank

that increase in efficiency far outweighs the belt losses, and actually includes the belt drive
losses as that is what i used to drive the alternator in testing,,, i might also add this was with
dual AA drive belts and not serpentine, i would expect the serpentine to be a touch better than
A belts too.

if efficiency is your concern, then look at the overall efficiency and don't get hung up on single component efficiency.

fwiw

bob g

[Frank S]

From the utter power a good read
http://www.utterpower.com/direct-drive-vs-serpentine-belt-drive-in-small-power-applications/

[bentcrafter]

for example the 555 is about 54% efficient (average) into a 12volt battery bank and will be very nearly 80% efficient into a 24volt bank

So how does your 555 compare (efficiency wise only) to a properly matched Niehoff 24v, say, 60-75A rated, using identical drive configurations?

[bentcrafter]

From the utter power a good read
http://www.utterpower.com/direct-drive-vs-serpentine-belt-drive-in-small-power-applications/

Nice read, thank you. Unfortunately, there was no numbers given. Apparently, the primary focus was on initial cost(s) and ease of RPM matching.

I'm reasonably savvy with drive efficiencies - I design and build HPVs (human powered vehicles). So if i were to decide to drift from the preferred direct drive, then I'd be more inclined to use synchronous than either V-belts or serpentine. The downside with synchronous, however, is that belt alignment is very critical.

[mobile_bob]

the 555  which is a 12 volt alternator driven to charge a 24volt battery bank will be more efficient
than any other common 24 volt alternator driven to charge a 24volt battery bank

the reason basically comes down to stator resistance and the compromises taken in order to have
and alternator that will both charge at engine idle and at highway speeds.

we need not make this compromise, we really could care the less about charging over a very wide
rpm range, we can pick the most efficient range and negate the concern with having to do any charging
at very low alternator speeds typical of automotive use at engine idle.

i took another look at your leece neville alternator, and i am not sure how thick the stator core stack
is?  most of the jb series are around 2" thick in the exposed area assembled, yours looks like it might be
half that?  if so it will have significantly less resistance (a good thing) than the typical jb series alternator.

also the fact that it is a 140amp unit tells me it is much more likely to be a delta wound stator (also a good thing) providing for the lowest stator resistance.

so measure that, and let us know, all might not be lost.  that unit might be much more efficient used
as a 24volt charger than the more typical L/N jb series alternator.

as for the niehoff's nothing wrong with them other than they like every other manufacture have to make compromises in order to have a unit that will charge over a very wide rpm range, and do so from a fairly low rpm to power accessories at engine idle.

another thing about the 555 is the stator is a 16 pole unit, other heavy duty alternators are typically 12pole units, this allows the 555 to use fewer turns of heavier wire to achieve low rpm charging. fewer turns lower resistance.

remember the losses on this class of automotive alternators are primarily due to stator resistance
and rectifier losses.. the other losses such as core losses, windage and others we can do little about.

we can however choose an alternator design with the least resistance stator winding, highest pole count,
and remember that the diode losses while very significant are half that in a 24volt system than they are in the native 12volt system.

bob g

[bentcrafter]

Both stators appear to be shorted -  If they are good, I can't measure it.

Laminate Stack hight 1.31" for the 8815LCF - 1.38" for the Starco

Looks like the LN has one toasted phase (it's obviously been hot)

The Starco has an open field (measured on the slip rings)

18815LCF on the left - Starco LN-515 right





From my inexperienced perspective, I'm inclined to shop for another unit, and scrap these for the copper, etc.

[mobile_bob]

i wouldn't recommend the use of either for 24volt use, they are in pretty tough shape
in my opinion

the resistance of the windings is very low, usually hard to measure with anything other than
a very good digital meter.

i don't recall for sure, but i am thinking that they are around an ohm or so, probably not much more
which is very hard to read with just any ohm meter

bob g

[bentcrafter]

if efficiency is your concern, then look at the overall efficiency and don't get hung up on single component efficiency.

I wouldn't say that I'm 'hung up' on any single component. Instead, I tend to scrutinize ALL components... providing it's cost effective to do so. Realistically, if we wish single-out ICE powered genny losses, the engine alone is the single most contributer. Knowing that, I have invested about 6 months and a little over $400 so far in modifications squeezing an estimated 10 HP from 200cc @ 2k RPM (on LPG no less).  So it would be a little disappointing to hang a belt on it.  

i wouldn't recommend the use of either for 24volt use, they are in pretty tough shape
in my opinion

Yes, we agree. And I quickly realized that when I dissected them. As I eluded to before, they were freebies so there is no loss of love or $... just copper for the scrap pile. And since that first post, I have come to realize that there is much better choices available. So the hunt continues....

[oilburner]

Hi
Can you tell us about the motor?  Is it a motorcycle engine?
Thanks!

===
I wouldn't say that I'm 'hung up' on any single component. Instead, I tend to scrutinize ALL components... providing it's cost effective to do so. Realistically, if we wish single-out ICE powered genny losses, the engine alone is the single most contributer. Knowing that, I have invested about 6 months and a little over $400 so far in modifications squeezing an estimated 10 HP from 200cc @ 2k RPM (on LPG no less).  So it would be a little disappointing to hang a belt on it.