S195 No fuel injector pump output

[mobile_bob]

rca, i think you are correct

when i first saw the screw i thought it might be a buffer screw
used to catch the throttle at idle like a detroit
but after looking into it on my s195 it is as you stated a limit screw
which limits maximum fuel position or delivery

i suppose it is possible it has been screwed way to far in, but i doubt it
as i think these engines are al started and that screw is adjusted  at the factory.


bob g

[rcavictim]

rca, i think you are correct

when i first saw the screw i thought it might be a buffer screw
used to catch the throttle at idle like a detroit
but after looking into it on my s195 it is as you stated a limit screw
which limits maximum fuel position or delivery

i suppose it is possible it has been screwed way to far in, but i doubt it
as i think these engines are al started and that screw is adjusted  at the factory.


bob g

Thanx Bob.  So that is the 'Black smoke adjustment'.

[playdiesel]

rca, i think you are correct

when i first saw the screw i thought it might be a buffer screw
used to catch the throttle at idle like a detroit
but after looking into it on my s195 it is as you stated a limit screw
which limits maximum fuel position or delivery

i suppose it is possible it has been screwed way to far in, but i doubt it
as i think these engines are al started and that screw is adjusted  at the factory.

bob g

Thanx Bob.  So that is the 'Black smoke adjustment'.

I wondered too. When I had to remove the cover to fix a leak I discovered just as you siad, a rack limit adjustment, or "smoke screw". I have not noticed the other one mentioned that will operate the pump manualy. Must be an optional item installed by certain Mfgs?

[Henry W]

Some S195 manufactures do not install Fuel Rack Limiting screws on their engines. Some also have a sight hole to see if the fuel rack lever is inserted properly while installing the gear case. The two S195 Golden Flying Fish engines I had did not have the Fuel Rack Limiting screws. Both did have the Injector Pump priming screw instead. I did have the Injector Pump priming screw on my belt drive S195 genset rotate while running and hung the injector pump in the pumped position. I did take it out and plugged the hole in the gearcase so it would not happen again.

Henry

[stevek]

OK, Let me answer a few of the replies sent. Once again, thanks to all that took the time to help me out.

Reply 3 - Thob - The only way I see to adjust the lift from the cam is to remove some of the shims at the pump mounting flange. Not sure I'm ready to go there just yet. That's messing with things a bit beyond my comprehension at this time. That has other ramifications doesn't it?

Reply 4 - playdiesel - 1) This looks like a good place to start. For all I know with, the multitude of variations on the S195 theme out there (I'm not even sure exactly who made the engine I have) there could be something different with the way the rack is initially aligned or something, who knows? If I can get fuel through the pump statically that will tell me something. 2) Positive I got the ball aligned with the slot in the governor arm. I know this because in my quest for the answer to "What if I. . . " I purposely misaligned  the ball on the rack outside the slot in the fork and had one hell of a time getting the pump back out afterwards. So the answer to "What if I do that on purpose? is - - "don't do that."

Reply 5 - hwew - Yes , engine manufactured in 2007, bought in 2007, moved form one storage bin to another for 5 years. Got real serious about it now that we have our own home AND went through our first 3 day power outage in July. Found out that we did just fine with a small borrowed generator for keeping the fridge & freezer cold and a light on in the evening BUT found out real quick that our well pump is 220v and water is real important. Didn't have to lug too many 5 gallon buckets of water up from the creek to realize I liked having a toilet that works without my intervention. Hence my current dilemma.

Reply 6 - Ronmar - Have the priming 'actuator' stowed (the 'flat' facing the roller on the pump) . I did try using it to move fuel through the pump but no joy.

Reply 10 - moblie bob - I've done this BUT with the high pressure line removed. Would that make a difference? When I couldn't get fuel at the injector I just left it off since I had the pump in and out half a dozen times. Didn't think the fittings were meant for a whole lot of 'take it off & put it back on' cycles. Like I said in my original post, I'm not getting anything out of the pump at this point, not even spitting any fuel.

Reply 11 - rcavictim - Something I noticed along the lines of the max fuel adjustment - there's not very much 'throw' on the governor arm from the "start/idle" position to the max fuel stop as it is currently set. I mean very little, with the pump removed the fork on the governor arm is barely out of sight from the notch in the case where the ball on the rack goes in to mate up with the fork in the governor arm. Lot of throw the other way, toward 'fuel cut off'. Don't know if this is normal or not. haven't messed with that adjustment.

Reply 12 - mobile bob - I think this is where I'm going to end up when all is said & done. When I have the fuel delivery valve out to check for static flow through the pump (playdiesel's suggestion) I'll double check everything in there for everything you mentioned. I'm real sure I got it back together correctly, it kind of all fell out and scattered when I removed it from the pump (disassembled on the workbench on clean dry paper towels). Looking at what it does and referencing some pictures I found on-line I put it back together the way I thought it ought to be. I'll post a picture of it laid out for all to look at, I might not be a smart as I think I am, that's happened before :-). Didn't realize that assembly was so susceptible to so many 'little' things. Did keep it clean while reassembling so there shouldn't be an chunks in there but there's other things to look for.
Have checked the pressure line from the pump to the injector. Ran a piece of safety wire through it just to make sure it wasn't blocked. Do appreciate the statement about ". . . the pressures involved ought to rupture the line." Not used to thinking about that as something to watch out for.  Goes back to hwew's mention of working with high pressure fluids. Been down that road, mostly learning from others mistakes (lucky for me).

Will hopefully get a chance to play with it this weekend. I'll let you all know how I make out.
Thanks again.

Steve K

[mobile_bob]

remember the function of the fuel delivery valve is basically an output check valve
if that valve leaks due to a piece of crap in the seat or a burr, or swarf, or any other imperfection
the valve won't seat properly.

also the seat back face must be a nice face to face fit to the barrel body, if there is an imperfection
there, it will leak and not seal properly.

without good seal in this area, the pump will either not draw in fuel at all, or be reduced.

by the way, the pump stroke is adjusted by a shim puck under the piston between the spring base
and the piston.  the shims that the pump is mounted with adjust the injection timing.

bob g

[stevek]

Well, finally got some to mess with it. Checked for static flow through the pump, that checked out fine, so out came the pump again. Totally disassembled it, used scotch-brite on the delivery valve base and the face of the barrel body. Couldn't find any imperfections at all on either piece, couldn't feel anything and ran a tissue across both faces to see if it would pick up a nick or burr. Cleaned everything with alcohol and reassembled with a very light coat of straight 30wt non detergent oil just to let everything slide properly till I got it back in the engine. Took a picture of everything laid out after disassembly (pic attached or inserted, not sure how this works but will find out shortly), this is the way it went back together.
Cranked it over by hand and got fuel! Checked the delivery line to the injector for obstruction once again, installed and bled at the injector. Never got an actual "flow" but eventually got a good amount of fuel and no noticeable air.
Cranked it up using the starter, got a couple of puffs of whitish smoke then nothing.

Loosened the line at pump and cranked it over, no fuel again. Cranked by hand and with the starter, no output from the pump.

I'm thinking I'm not getting all the air out of the line to the injector so that's what I'm going to try now.   

[mobile_bob]

this pump is different than any of the manuals i have

mine do not have the rack and pinion, the plunger element has the
control arm mounted to it on mine

there are several other differences

one that jumps out at me is up toward the upper left of your picture
the second piece that looks like it is partially hidden by the pump body

mine do not have this piece, does it block the port in the delivery valve holder (upper left piece)?

if it blocks the outlet port to the injector line, it  shouldn't!  at least i can't see why it should
and would be tempted to try leaving that part out.

i forget, do you have a manual for this engine? if so does the manual illustration show all these parts and their relative positions?

bob g

[stevek]

Bob,
The piece you're referring to fits inside the spring, I believe to keep the spring from flexing side to side. It's hollow to allow fuel to flow through it.Leaving it out is going to reduce (or eliminate) the spring tension against the piston in the delivery valve
The manual I got with the engine shows a pump like you have, with the control arm attached directly to the plunger, no 'guide' between the delivery valve spring and valve body, and it shows a retaining screw in the forward bottom of the pump housing that is not present on the pump I have. The basic assembly & function is the same, just some detail differences.

What puzzles me is how the pump can work, then seems to 'lose its prime'. If I can get a couple of puffs of smoke that tells me that all the piece parts can, and do, work (mechanically), something is just preventing them from doing so. If I haven't bled it thoroughly do you think the air remaining is somehow working its way back to the pump and keeping it from working properly?

[mobile_bob]

i do know they flat will not start if there is even a tiny bit of air in the system
so do what  you can to get it all out

still thinking on this one

bob g

[stevek]

Took the spring guide out of the delivery valve and tried again. Got fuel up to the injector and bled it there, still won't start, but it tried this time. Making progress. It's got to be air in the fuel delivery line.
When I get it to run I'll put that spring guide back in and see what happens but for now got bigger fish to fry.

[Tom Reed]

Just thinking out loud here, but another thing that can prevent fuel from being pumped is the piston being stuck in the bore. It's only a spring loaded return, so anything sticky in the fuel or if machined to tight may cause it.

[mobile_bob]

another possible problem, one that happened to me on one of my engines
was the fuel supply hose from the tank to the pump was made too long, and was kinked
which over time completely cut off the fuel to the pump... it is tucked up under where
it was not clearly visible.

Tom's suggestion about checking for plunger binding is a good one too!

when its all said and done, it might be you find something really simple that is causing the problem

also another thought, not likely but possible

if the injector is not sealing properly, it might be getting some compression forced back up the tip and into the injector, this will be in effect an air bubble.  so maybe pull the injector and check that it is popping off cleanly and at the requisite pressure.

also i don't remember but are you connected to the oem fuel tank, or a remote tank? if remote make sure there is enough elevation of the tank, so that fuel runs out of the fuel supply bango fitting into the pump when you loosen it,, ample flow is mandatory to getting a good purge on the fuel system.  remember that the pump is designed to make pressure, and while it might have the ability to lift fuel a bit
i would never suggest having the fuel supply anything but above the pump.

just kicking around more idea's

fwiw

bob g

[stevek]

Sorry for the long pause, other matters took precedent for a while.
Took the offered advice as much as possible and I made progress. The pump is working. I can use a speed-handle at the priming mechanism to push fuel up to the injector fitting and have bled it there. I still can't get it to light off -but- it tries. If I 'prime the heck out of it' (about 30 turns with the speedhandle) I might get one or two 'coughs' out of it with a couple of pretty significant puffs of whiteish smoke, but then it just cranks and puffs out what appears to be mostly unburned fuel (kind of a cross between mostly fuel mist & light smoke is the best I can describe it).
One time after about 5 start attempts it coughed out a lot of very black unburned fuel, I'm assuming it picked up a bunch of carbon from the exhaust manifold & muffler on it's way out.
I even drained all the fuel out of it, tank, filter, pump, and all the lines up to the injector, and refilled with new kerosene (off-road diesel). Reasonable & relevant - I don't know, but was worth a shot.

So thinking along the lines of it is still a fuel delivery problem I'm down to two things;
1) I just have not yet bled it properly
2) the one suggestion from mobile-bob - "if the injector is not sealing properly, it might be getting some compression forced back up the tip and into the injector, this will be in effect an air bubble.  so maybe pull the injector and check that it is popping off cleanly and at the requisite pressure".

I'm going to try bleeding it a few more times but if that fails, how would I go about checking the injector, just pull the injector and hook the fuel line back up to it out of the engine and crank it?
What exactly am I looking for, just a consistent pulsed spray?
I don't have any way to check pressure, so I'd have to make an assumption on that being good if the pump is working correctly.

I get the feeling that on these engines there isn't much in the way of 'degrees of working correctly' on the individual components. They either work or they don't. Am I way  off base on that?

Thanks to all that replied previously. Look forward to whatever help you all can provide.

SteveK

[Ronmar]

Kerosene and off road diesel are NOT the same thing.  Kero dosn't have very good lubricating properties, so you should only use diesel...

The symptom you describe sounds like it is not delivering quite enough fuel to sustain combustion, or the engine compression is low. It could also be a timing issue.  Are you sure the lever from the governor that operates the fuel rack is opening the rack all the way?  have you had the gearcase off to check the timing marks and the governor linkage?

The injector performance can be evaluated like you describe, remove it from the engine and connect it to the fuel line and purge out the air.  Need to do this in a well ventelated space and wear a mask as diesel vapor is not a good thing to breathe in...  It should spray a cloud of vapor abbroximately 12-18" long, with fine vapor, no dripping or large droplets.  The cloud should vary in size from nothing to full as you adjust the control lever from off to full...  It should also be a single squirt and not pulses if the crank speed is adequate...