where to next?

[BioHazard]

Some of you guys out in the woods might need to take a closer look at propane, as opposed to diesel. It's been a while since I checked the price on propane but it's been cheaper lately than offroad diesel BTU for BTU. A system with a diesel pilot would seem like a good idea to me without a NG supply, and would offer flexibility on the fuel you can use.

[Henry W]

Hey Guy's

I have been busy trying to get a new HVAC unit installed while working my full time job. I swear, I will never buy another house with a crawl space.   This simple HVAC install turned into a long drawn out install because of the 3 foot crawl space. I am feeling the effects of not being young and able of scooting around and working in tight ackward places. What was I thinking of?   I already told my wife that this is the last time I will ever do such an install.

Anyways, about this topic.
Everyones needs are differant. My home dependant on a 100% electricity. But for now the good thing electric power is still fairly cheap here. As of this time Cogen does not make much sense for my needs. But I plan to change to a propane water heater in the near future. This means propane will be my prime source to fuel the emergency standby 30Kw generator. Setting the house up to use baseboard heat would be nice but as I mentioned before, I am feeling the effects of middle age. So I don't think baseboard heat will happen any time soon.

Right now my electric requiremants are as follows:
2-1/2 ton heat pump.
10Kw emregency backup heat.
Electric water heater.
1-1/2 Hp submersable well pump.
Electric washer and Dryer.
Electric Range and Oven.
Two Refrigerators
4 computers.
4 TV's.
Vacume Tube Audio System which I am not willing to part with.
2 microwave ovens
Floresent lights
And finally, all the gadgets in the house that my family is not willing to part with.

One thing I will do is being active with Cogen. I firmly believe Natural gas and Propane will be best for most people. We stand a better chance working with the EPA with these fuels anyways.
Being 100% dependant on electricity will not stop me from building a nice Cogen unit. I always look at what if the grid goes down and I need life support for days, weeks or months on end. If this happens than having a small Cogen unit for life support will be worth having. The only large load I will be concerned about is kicking over the well pump. Hopfully I will be prepaired if anything happens.

My small Cogen unit will be based on Propane with an Emergency backup diesel system made with the Kubota EA330 engine.

Henry

[XYZER]

I just filled my barby tank and it was 2.79/gal. 2-300 gal would be cheaper I'm sure and is there a shelf life?

[Ronmar]

As far as I know Propane has no expiration date...

[BioHazard]

At today's local prices, diesel cost $3.19 per 100K BTU and propane only cost $3.05. Both slightly cheaper delivered in bulk...(I really want to convert my truck to propane)

Propane/NG also has the advantage of being able to use more efficient exhaust heat exchanger designs with the cleaner burning exhaust. I would only guess a diesel engine would last longer on propane than on diesel, the same way gas engines last longer on propane than gas. (no soot!)

[veggie]

Ronmar,

That's a really good point about utilization of waste heat in summer.
If it could be used to assist cooling systems it would be very beneficial.
Problem is....during warm weather there is already plenty of hot ambient air for the AC evaporator.
Perhaps the use of hot coolant could allow a much smaller evaporator could be used.? (Smaller and cheaper).

veggie

[Ronmar]

Ronmar,
Problem is....during warm weather there is already plenty of hot ambient air for the AC evaporator.

veggie

Not sure I am understanding your thought here.  The ambient air temp(high) IS the problem, and cannot be used to assist the cooling process. It hinders the AC process as the heat removed from a dwelling must be concentrated to a level high enough to allow the AC condenser outside to transfer that heat to the atmosphere.  What you need is a heat source concentrated enough to power an absorbtion cooler process.  They are doing it with solar hot water now, so I am guessing temperatures as low as 200F could be used to power this process, and higher exhaust temps should be even more valuable.  Then you get your electricity AND your summer cooling and the efficiency starts to return to the system... 

[mobile_bob]

been doing research for about 10 years now on absorption cooling, driven by engine exhaust heat
the coolant is not quite hot enough for most absorbent systems, but the exhaust heat is more than enough

for that matter the exhaust heat exchanger can be made to take most of the heat away for other purposes leaving enough heat
to do an absorption cycle system.

i am thinking a multi chamber system with automated gate valves to switch the exhaust stream to each of perhaps 4 chambers, so that
while one is being driven/charged, others would be in the chilling phase, or others could be put to use driving refrigeration/freezer units.

on the topic of propane

as far as i know propane has no shelf life, it is a stable compound

and i fully realize that not everyone can make use of nat gas, or maybe not even propane, however
we have to work within the confines of the EPA's guidelines "if" we hope to get approval for a limited use exemption
for micro cogen use.

if we went with a changfa type, we can easily get them spec'd for our end use, and should someone live in a country or area
where the US EPA is of no concern, then converting the same engine to run on diesel would be a simple matter of ordering a few parts
(parts orders are not restricted by the epa anyway) 

having said that i would not suggest anyone try to circumvent the EPA regulations, and if someone chose to do so i wouldn't want to know about it.

bottom line is this, right now we have few options other than play by the rules as set forth by the EPA, either we buy certified engine's to run on diesel or we work within the confines of the cogeneration program with the hopes of them allowing an exemption to import these engine's for use with natgas or propane to be used only in cogen applications.

also for those that are not sure how this affects them, or benefits them

any technologies or methods we develop, such as heat exchangers, controllers, and all the other related stuff while maybe not being worthwhile to everyone in completed form, likely will have application in some part of their systems, either now or down the road.

for instance, anyone living off grid with a diesel genset, may not want or be able to run on natgas or propane, but if he follows along he might find that a heat exchanger that we develop might find application with his genset and provide him with a hot shower and hot water to wash with... that alone might be welcome after a hard day chopping wood for the fireplace.

developing control systems, to limit run time, and increase overall efficiency, might  at first not be of interest to everyone, until they see how it reduces the amount of diesel they are having to buy form the pump, and still get the job done.

there is a very long list ...

think of NASA, there was much technology we all benefit from, while it is likely none of us will ever set foot on the moon, we all benefit from miniaturization of electronics, solar panels, medicine and heaven knows what else from the programs they worked on.

in our own little way we can do something to improve things for everyone here, "if" we choose to work together.

or we can sit around rehashing listeroids forever, knowing we can't import more of them, or sit around and wait for surplus center to come up with high speed engine's, or what?

personally i like the proactive approach, 

bob g

[uber39]

Bob,
I couldn't agree more, whatever benefits one will benefit all. Its not all about the prime mover that part is easy enough, for me its the add-ons. I can do electric AC not a problem, small DC still not to bad, BUT electronics ? controls ? thats where I fall in a heap every time I know what most components are just not what they do. I can do the big bulky stuff, maybe nowhere near as pretty as most on these pages but it does the job.
      I'll have to sit down and tell my story soon
         Thank you all
               Ian   

[BioHazard]

I think it's important that we work on a grid-independent system. That way your cogen system is also your backup when the power is out - that helps it earn it's keep in the summer time. I still like the idea of using NG with a diesel pilot, that way if the NG lines go out you can still get fuel and switch back to full diesel. With a spark ignition system I would want to be able to easily hook up a backup propane tank in place of the natural gas.

[uber39]

With an auto transfer switch you should be able to have your cake and eat it to
http://www.latronics.com.au/products/automatic-ac-transfer-switch
This is one that is available here in Oz, don't know whats over there??
Did mine with a rotary ON-OFF-ON switch from inverter or grid.
       Ian 

[mobile_bob]

my preference is for pilot injection dual fuel operation, without internal modification of the engine, this allows the engine to be easily returned to
diesel operation in an emergency situation.  i just don't know whether the EPA would approve of such a system, however

they do allow something like 100 hours per year for testing, and some other operation of uncertified engines, iirc
it might be that if the system is setup under a control system where the run time on diesel fuel alone is logged so that it can be proven
to not exceed the allowed limits, they might approve that setup.  perhaps such a system that not only logged run time on straight diesel but at the limit of that run time, would not allow a restart, unless an emergency override was initiated and another date log was set. in which case if the epa
were to audit the unit operation and find the run time to exceed limits, then they could look at the logs and see that the over run time happened within the time frame of a power outage caused by something out of the control of the owner, such as a hurricane or something.

sort of like how the FCC would never allow an unlicensed operator on the air except in an emergency situation, and then only if it were logged int the log book with time and date.

bob g

[Ronmar]

I like the idea of a pilot system also, but I think if the word diesel is used anywhere in this proposal, the EPA, at the very least, is going to require that the base engine is EPA certified to run on said diesel from the outset...

[fabricator]

I make bio diesel and use it in fuel oil furnaces in my shop and house, it costs me about seventy cents a gallon to make and a 250 gallon tank will last all winter in the house, a 55 gallon drum will do in the shop, this year I plan on also having the a radiator from my listeroid in the shop, right now it's on the wall of the gen shed outside, it'll be set up so I can switch between the two.

[BioHazard]

been doing research for about 10 years now on absorption cooling, driven by engine exhaust heat
the coolant is not quite hot enough for most absorbent systems, but the exhaust heat is more than enough

Have you seen these bob?
http://www.yazakienergy.com/waterfired.htm

They claim to work at 158 to 203 degrees F. Too bad the smallest one is 10 tons...

In my ideal system the exhaust and coolant heat would both be collected and stored in the same place...