hollow dippers 6/1

[mike0000]

Hello everyone,

I bought a 6/1 Listeroid from someone who bought it as a kit for a generator build, he went as far as assembly and got it to running condition. I am going through the engine and doing alot of reading. I would like to go to a hollow dipper and big end solid bearing.
Are either available from forum members or other sources?

Thank you,

Mike

[cujet]

I have custom hollow dippers on my Listeroid twin. They were made by a member here XYZer. I don't know if he still makes them. Certainly, they are nice looking!

[mike0000]

Thanks cujet,

I emailed xyzer, he hasn't made them for some time now. I ended up drilling the dipper myself. I'm sure there is a better way but I bought a $12.00 vise for my drill press from Harbor Freight. I drilled about half way through from each side, it turned out very well.


  Mike

[playdiesel]

They are not available anywhere at this time that I am aware of

I am Johnny-come-lately to this Listeroid thing as compared to some of the other guys here but I'm going to stick my neck and lay it on a chopping block here and state that the entire hollow dipper solid bearing deal is getting around the problem, not fixing it. I say this for two reasons, 1, The original lubrication design has worked well since 192?  in engines of English origin and 2. Lubrication problems don't know or care what country the engine was built in. The English engines did lack one thing, contamination aka, SLAG AND SAND.  I can easily see how blocking the holes in the big end of the rod keeps the sand out of the rod bearing but what about everything else that has oil splashing on it? ?  Take your engine completely down and hire the local NAPA to hot tank it or do it in the back yard on a 55 gallon drum. Then scrape and chisel every nook and corner (needle scaler is best) And when you get tired of that seal the rest tight to the casting with Gyptol or other enamel sold for same work. Then enjoy long life from your engine. I am not saying that hollow dippers are bad, but suggesting that they are not the fix for the real problem.

This pile of slag and sand was chipped out of what looked like a clean engine before the hot tank stripped away the paint and flushing oil remnants. The paint can lid is to give scale to the pile which is by no means all of the crap I chiseled out but only what I could easily collect, 1/2 to 2/3 of the total. This is from one of five I have had apart and all similar.  My hope is that it scares your into cleaning yours, money better spent than chasing down hollow dippers,,, in my (slighty opinionated) opinion

[XYZER]

I have to agree...and I made the dippers.....

http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=6202.msg71626#msg71626       top of page 3

Thanks cujet,

I emailed xyzer, he hasn't made them for some time now. I ended up drilling the dipper myself. I'm sure there is a better way but I bought a $12.00 vise for my drill press from Harbor Freight. I drilled about half way through from each side, it turned out very well.


  Mike

Mike did you just put a straight thru hole in the dipper? They should look like these or thereabouts.

[mike0000]

Yes I did just drill straight through, do you think that is a mistake?

[XYZER]

Mike,
It might force some oil up when it stabs into the sump but I would suspect not much. The hole in the face in theory has a positive preassure the whole time it is stroking through the oil giving it time to force oil to the crank rod journal. I have done as you did but then weld / solider the end closed and add the face hole.

[vdubnut62]

Hi all, I'm not an expert, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night either, but didn't the Dursley Listers have
a step in the sump that caused an eddy to let the crap have a place to settle out. That and nondetergent oil have the effect of
"cleaning" the oil and letting any chunks fall out? My understanding is that the Indian copies lack that little detail for some reason.
Somebody please correct me if I'm confused or just plain wrong about this.
Oh, yes I do realize that the originals also lacked the abundance of sand and slag in the 'oids too.
Ron.

[rl71459]

I am Listeroid illiterate.... But them are some nice lookin Dippers!
Nice work XYZer

[mike0000]

I will weld the end and drill the side. Thank you xyzer.

Mike

[playdiesel]

I hope I didnt come across as slamming the hollow dippers
My slam is against sad and slag. I dont care what the make /model of engine is, engines do not digest sand, sand digests engines. It needs to be gone, or sealed in place as the first step in my again, only slightly opinionated opinion.

[Ronmar]

I thought the dipper was supposed to knife thru the oil, not paddle thru it?  Those dippers have the hole in the "paddle" face, not the edge...

[sailawayrb]

Removing the sand and sealing the inside is a given with the "oids".  

However, I think you are missing the point about using a hollow dipper.  The hollow dipper is REQUIRED if you are running a solid upper bearing, otherwise there is no way for the oil to enter the bearing (i.e., the normal upper oil hole doesn't exist in the solid upper bearing).  Given the loads experienced by the upper bearing, it is far better to provide more bearing surface (i.e., eliminate the oil hole and the oil groves)...hence the reason to run the solid upper bearing.

If you are NOT running a solid upper bearing, you probably should NOT use a hollow dipper.  Using a hollow dipper with a standard upper bearing would provide a vent (i.e., the standard oil hole) and a path (i.e., the hollow dipper) for the oil to escape from the bearing during operation and this would likely result in less oil film protection and shorter bearing life.  I say "probably" and "likely" because I don't have any real data or knowledge running in this configuration, but it doesn't seem like a very good idea to me.

I found the debate at Lister Engine site interesting as well.  There is no question that a quality TRB is preferable to a journal bearing.  I suppose it is fair to question whether the "oids" have quality TRBs, but even "oid" TRB failures seem to be non-existent.  The only reason TRBs were not in the original Listers is because the technology wasn't mature when this engine was designed.  Lister didn't really stay current with evolving engine technology and this likely contributed to why they went out of business.

Listers (and the "oids") are pretty crude engines all things considered.  In fact, their primary advantage is that their crudeness makes them easy to work on...which is pretty much required to run and maintain them.  There is a lot of hype about them running forever, but it's all just hype.

Bob B.

[cgwymp]

...didn't the Dursley Listers have a step in the sump that caused an eddy to let the crap have a place to settle out....My understanding is that the Indian copies lack that little detail for some reason.

Not all 'roids lack this feature...

[vdubnut62]

...didn't the Dursley Listers have a step in the sump that caused an eddy to let the crap have a place to settle out....My understanding is that the Indian copies lack that little detail for some reason.

Not all 'roids lack this feature...

Duly noted and filed. Thanks for the info! Now, which are which?
Ron