Saltfree water softeners

[mbryner]

This has nothing to do w/ cogen or engines, but you guys are a eclectic bunch and thought you might enjoy:

Our well water has 12-14 grains of hardness (think 2 dissolved Aspirin pills worth of calcium powder for every gallon).   White scale is starting to stick to everything.   I don't like the slippery feel of water softener water, or lugging bags of salt, etc. etc.   So, I did internet searches and found hocus pocus magnetic calcium ion removers and such.   But one of the salt free softener system designs didn't seem so far fetched.   Look at the Pelican NaturSoft system as an example.  http://www.pelicanwater.com/learn_about_natursoft_tic_technology.php   It uses a bed of media beads which start the calcium crystal formation (catalyst) before it starts in the pipes.    The microscopic calcium *crystals* (not ions) subsequently break off the beads and flow downstream through your faucets while continuing to enlarge and pull scale on the way out.  

I didn't buy the Pelican system, but instead used the same technology from a local water softener installer/vendor.    We installed it (vendor and I) on Monday morning.   He gave me a good warranty w/ $300 changeout clause to a regular water softener if I don't like it.   The water doesn't feel any different, of course, because the Ca+ ions and crystals are still in the water.   Time will tell if the scale decreases.

Any of you tried these systems and, if yes, what are your experiences?   Positive?  Negative?

Marcus

(edit for readability)

[Lloyd]

This has nothing to do w/ cogen or engines, but you guys are a eclectic bunch and thought you might enjoy:

Our well water has 12-14 grains of hardness (think 2 dissolved Aspirin pills worth of calcium powder for every gallon).   White scale is starting to stick to everything.   I don't like the slippery feel of water softener water, or lugging bags of salt, etc. etc.   So, I did internet searches and found hocus pocus magnetic calcium ion removers and such.   But one of the salt free softener system designs didn't seem so far fetched.   Look at the Pelican NaturSoft system as an example.  http://www.pelicanwater.com/learn_about_natursoft_tic_technology.php   It uses a bed of media beads which start the calcium crystal formation (catalyst), which subsequently break off the beads and flow downstream through your faucets while continuing to enlarge and pull scale on the way out.  

I didn't buy the Pelican system, but instead used the same technology from a local water softener installer/vendor.    We installed it (vendor and I) on Monday morning.   He gave me a good warranty w/ $300 changeout clause to a regular water softener if I don't like it.   The water doesn't feel any different, of course, because the Ca+ ions and crystals are still in the water.   Time will tell if the scale decreases.

Any of you tried these systems and, if yes, what are your experiences?   Positive?  Negative?

Marcus

No help here, except to maybe add a good filtration system, so your not ingesting those little crystals...seems the body might not appreciate those crystals...your the doc.

Lloyd

[mbryner]

Oh, the calcium crystals are OK.  You just pee those out if you get too much.   The catalyst beads, on the other hand, may not be the best to ingest, but it's an upflow system with a fine filter.   If the beads get into the filter the flow rate will just go down.    Not too worried about that part...

Maybe I'll post a pic later after work today.   It's pretty simple looking, though.

[injin man]

The magnetics supposedly do what you describe but I'd rather have my
water softener. We went to Daytona Beach for a mini vacation and every
single hotel had extremely hard water and once you've been living with
treated water it's really hard to go back.

[mike90045]

I used a couple of powerful ceramic magnets on 3/4" copper line. In southern kalifornia, we have really hard water, piped in from the "desert"!   When I installed my 50gallon water heater, I swapped out the hose bib for a 3/4" ball valve, and when I flush it every 6 months or so, I get about a cupful of soft mushy calcium beads, about the size of a pea up to the size of a hazelnut.  Normally, the stuff settles into flat layers and gets stuck inside the water heater, and rattles around till it cracks the tank.  I'm pretty sure the magnet treated water has changed it.  Still have some residue form on faucets and such, but not as bad as before.

I got magnets & book from:
http://www.orgonelab.org/cart/ymagnets.htm
(I scanned the book as a pdf if someone wants a preview)
It's a cheap way to play, not $100's of dollars

[rl71459]

Great Topic
I have been considering another similar unit (Electronic, "Eden Pure" I think) but could not convince myself it was not "Hocus Pocus", An engineer friend of mine and I have talked it thru. Our discussion's always led to our opinion that an effect is certain. But our question was, Is this effect significant enough to improve water quality a measurable amount?

The unit we discussed consisted of a pre wound electromagnet, Split via multi pin connector and a control unit. Some internet searches say that the control unit applies a variable frequency signal to the coil.

I am watching very closely! I dont like Salt Softeners... Had one, Not impressed.

Rob

[cognos]

I hate to be the bearer of bad (or perhaps contentious... ) news...

The magnets don't work. It's not possible for a magnet to affect carbonate hardness - what most people call "calcium deposits." Unfortunately, it's a bit of a scam that keeps cropping up. Industrial carbonate hardness remediation is mostly like a regular water softener - cation/anion silica resin bead exchangers, refreshed with acid and caustic solutions instead of salt.

I know lots of people believe they see a difference. In some cases, it may be true. But the science doesn't support it, or believe me, it would be used industrially - those big ion resin beds are quite expensive to operate.

Magnets *may* have an effect on water that is very high in iron. But not to the point of "knocking" it out of solution. Theres is in fact some evidence - not much - that passing iron contaminated water through a strong magnetic firels somehow makes conventional downstream treatment more effective.

I have no information or experience with the type of system that mbryner is talking about. I know there are more ways to mitigate carbonate hardness in a home situation than an ionic resin bed exchanger. I'm just not familiar with this one. The "catalysis" explanation is a bit suspect to me. But It is quite possible it will work as advertised. I certainly don't know everything!

[cognos]

Ooops. I just read through that Pelican literature... some serious lapses in the science there. I wish you well, but the physics and the chemistry, as explained, have a lot of problems...

I've heard it all before, sadly. Essentially, they are attempting to say that they have somehow convinced "crystals" to drop out of the source water and somehow stay in solution, and that this somehow makes the water "balanced" - if this is in fact the mechanism, they are not balancing anything, they are actually upsetting the chemical equilibrium of the water...

Two ways scale forms in piping and on equipment - physically and chemically. Physically with rough piping surfaces - this increases the likelihod that a durable scale will form. Chemically - through dissimilar metal electro-chemical interactions, different charges on the particles attracted to the metals in the piping. Carbonate crystals - even microscopic ones - will be very likely to form scale on a rough surface. They will also be very attracted to any bare metal piping and equipment chemically... Unless there is a constant flow of water through the system to flush away these crystals, they are going to settle out and form concretions. Maybe even quicker than if they had just been left in solution as a carbonate salt. 

Who knows - with such a low carbonate hardness in the source water - 12 to 14 isn't too bad - it may have some effect, for your sake, lets hope so. I will be interested to hear of your experience with the system. Of course, someone such as myself would ask a seller for a definitive test - like a carbonate hardness test before and after treatment. There should be a marked difference. And like all science, the effect should be measureable and repeatable...

I really hope it works out for you.

[mbryner]

Time will tell, I guess.   And I don't get offended easily.

First, I asked a local well drilling outfit that came to talk at our Rotary club about water quality, and water softeners, etc.   He said that Pelican had a decent name in the water softener business, so I thought why would they be selling snake oil?   Second, I was a chemistry minor in college, but that was 15 years ago, and I didn't do extensive research on this yet.  I'll be embarrassed when it doesn't work later, but it seems logical that if you can initiate the crystalline structure in a controlled environment instead of in the pipes then you should be able to prevent worse scale formation in pipes.   

We had a miniature antiscale catalyst system which seemed to work for about 6 months and after the 9th month (now) the scale forming was significant.   I'll be able to tell you in the next few weeks if it is working. 

I can see some minimal benefit from a magnetic system, but the exposure to the process as the water flows past the device is so miniscule.

Oh, it irks me when they use words like being "in balance".   Sort of like a chiropractor or naturopath telling you your body is "out of balance".   What a bunch of BS.  But that's a whole different subject and I don't want to offend anyone.

Marcus

[cognos]

New technology is developed every day. Who knows? I just wish the explanation was clearer.
This is similar to something I just read about - but anything catalyzed in the bed was removed by cyclonic filtration immediately, in order to prevent it from depositing downstream. The reason it isn't widely used in industry is because it is more energy-intense than current tech.

Like I say, I wish you well, I hope it works, it would be a great alternative to the salt regeneration technology currently in use.

(And I'm with ya on the chiropractors... )

[cujet]

I use a fairly large conventional softener with both cation and anion resin beads, my well has a 2HP, 95PSI, 3 stage pump. My shower has 6 shower heads, with plenty of waterflow.

As you would expect, the water is very slimy feeling while soaped up, and it's exceedingly difficult to wash off the soap. However, I've found an acceptable solution. Aveeno makes an oatmeal bar soap that washes clean. It's the only one that does. In fact, it will wash the slimy feel from other soaps right off.

Had I not found this soap, I'd be mixing the hard water in with the soft, in moderate quantities. Blending does work, but also negates much of the benefits of water softeners.

[rl71459]

Cujet

That sounds like one awesome shower! Reminds me of the "Kohler" comercial were the contractor is testing the "Ultra Shower"  Too Funny!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyrqog70QsU

Rob

[cognos]

I used to hate soft water. But I'm used to it now. I don't drink the stuff, but I don't notice it's "sliminess" anymore. Good soap helps.

When I bought the house I'm in in 1982, it didn't have soft water. It had pretty good plumbing, new in 1978, but very poorly done. All lovely 3/4" copper headers with 1/2' lead-ins - but it was so poorly done, I knew I'd have to get after it someday...

In about 1984, while I was away on vacation for two weeks, someone decided to surprise me with a gift of an installed soft water system. When I got home, I had soft water. Within two weeks, all the cold solder joints were leaking. In the basement, in the walls, all over... The newly-soft water had descaled the lines, and that was the only thing stopping the joints from weeping. Replumbed the whole house, brought it up to "refinery-spec" - soft-start pump, stainless pressure tank system with cleanouts and sand filter, all viton-seal rebuildable ball isolation valves, 1" centre-of-the house headers, 3/4" lead lines. That $1000 water softener gift cost me $2000...