A Different Perspective on Automotive Alternator Direct DC Charging

[Lloyd]

Well pat,

It was never my intent to try to run you off, I hope you'll stay and participate.

Maybe it's your communication skills, or confusing wording, or just flat  claims that are out right against every proven system. Including all the words on you suppliers site, which are in direct opposition to your claims.

I have been managing battery banks well longer then you've had you system...I know from experience that what you propose will lead to a high failure rate, and much fuel burned, by the shear majority that would try it.

While the Bogart Tiametric is not the worst system in the world, I certainly wouldn't rate it worth the investment, and certainly would never recommend to one of my clients. First it is only as accurate as it's programed, it's not temp compensated, it's not Pukert compensated...So really it's an educated guess as to the real state of charge of the bank, this is even stated on you Idaho backwoods solar site.

last but not least I don't think anyone could use the system you prescribe, with out knowing what the temp of the bat bank is, so even though you say you're charging at 31 volts, how do you know it could be anywhere between 28 volts and 36 volts after temp. compensation.

And to be sure you take any fully charged bat. bank, and hit it with 31 volts it's going to bubble. With you're system, how do you know how long you're in bulk and absorption cycle?

On at least three of your post you state  just want to be able to build the most efficient system you can. If that's truly your goal, then quit being so combative and listen to point's made by the good people hear willing to help you achieve that goal.

This is not some good'ol boy's group, where friends are protecting friends... I'll assure you if Bob or myself started spouting something that was out of line, the rest here would be more then happy to point out our mistakes. As a matter of fact I have eaten crow here myself, and am happy to do so, when I prepared it for myself.

So stay or go you're choice...but if you want to learn stay, we all be glad to have ya.

lloyd

[rbodell]

Maybe we are talking apples and oranges here folks.

I'm not saying your systems will not work, but you express all of your thoughts on how mine can't, or won't. I'm here to tell you I do, and it does.

I was told by the "Experts" I could not possibly run industry standard 3 phase industrial metal lathes and mills off grid here with a single phase 120VAC. But I do daily. It was stated by an engineer and physicist that the product I have designed could not work and was "all wrong" for the task yet I did, and have taken a good majority of his business.

Everything is doable and relative. Blanket statements do not always fit.

One thing about these groups is that as soon as somebody says you can't, somebody does. Scientists and engineers all agree that a hummingbird can not fly, but they do, and they do it very well. One thing I have learned though in life is that nothing is impossible and the laws of physics are not exact or .

[admin]

as far as i am concerned the laws of physic's may as well be carved by God out of unobtanium, for they stand up to all scrutiny
whether one likes it or not.

if an engineer states that a hummingbird cannot fly, i would suggest he go back and take a better look at how the critter is doing it, and yes
he will find it does so without breaking any laws of physics.

laws are not suggestions, laws are not rule's, either of which might change due to circumstances.

bob g

[sailawayrb]

I agree Bob...only an incompetent engineer would conclude that a hummingbird can't fly.  A competent engineer would design and build one:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12513315

And then he would build a robotic fly with full reconnaissance capability...

Bob B.

[rbodell]

I agree Bob...only an incompetent engineer would conclude that a hummingbird can't fly.  A competent engineer would design and build one:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12513315

And then he would build a robotic fly with full reconnaissance capability...

Bob B.

Just like I said, as soon as somebody says you can't, somebody does.

[OFFGriddnPat]

Pat...

when someone comes forward claiming he can run his whole house, his complete three phase machine shop, all on a chinese clone engine
driving a chinese clone delco 10dn,  and does so for years without problems, well i am left to think a couple of things

1. the guy lives in a one room cabin, and
2. he runs his machines a few minutes per day, or
3. he is full of crap?

there are three rules of sales and i think it applies here as well

you can have what you want
you can have it when you want it
you can get it for cheap

you can have any two but not all three?

bob g

Since this old thread has been dredged up again, I thought I would add a comment-

I took some of my valuable time to PM Bob with a somewhat lengthy note and give him some details on (my) background and mfg business, and some specifics of how I and why I run my shop here at home off grid, run machines all day, 6 days a week including specifics for running 3 phase machines off the lowly poor auto alternator.

I find it interesting that nary a peep of a response from him, or a comment here.

Really?  There is NO way a 6.5HP will handle 95A@24V?  Have you ever tried it?

4.  If your 6.5HP engine is turning at an RPM where it can make it's rated 6.5HP, it should be capable of sustaining either 24V@95A or 12V@190A...

Best of luck to you, save your pennies for fuel and that new battery bank...

I am most definitely dun!

And dear Ronmar, please buy yourself a 6hp engine and an alt for a few bucks, then put a load on the field running at the required rpm to develop 6hp, to try and pull 95 amps.  It will be money very well spent and a fine educational lesson for you.

I will bow back out now.  Have a Merry Christmas everyone.

[mobile_bob]

offgridpat

this is the first i have heard of you sending me a pm, i thought maybe it was because i have been logged in as the admin
and haven't checked my pm's under mobile_bob

well, i just logged in and checked my pm's, and i find nothing from you?

bear in mind i save all pm's and don't delete them, so ?

perhaps you can go to your sent box and resend the pm?

while my assessment might have been a bit harsh, i stand by what i previously stated, however i would like to modify it a bit
if i may.

in as much as you claim to be able to run all facets of your life, both private and business from a chinese clone 6hp engine driving a
chinese clone delco 10dn or somesuch there is simply now way  you or anyone can do so with the common expectations of most folks.

now the modifier

it is possible that with a battery bank and an inverter, you could with very careful management run all your home stuff as well as your business equipment in a fashion that most folks would find very tedious. 

one would have to manage his loads so carefully that it would rival the Apollo mission that went awry wherein they had to work out a means of getting the boys back with something like a 14amp draw from the moon after a tank mixer blew up.

anything is possible, just like the 200mpg carburetor (which in reality was the 100mpg carb that took on a mythical life of its own). the problem is the same as the carburetor in that the designer freely admitted "while it works, no one will likely want to drive the car it is mounted on"  it simply is too time consuming to micromanage the ridiculously low amount of power available beit a car or a house/business.

rather than folks actually going to the trouble of looking up and reading the patent application, and the booklet on the carb, they simply choose to exaggerate the claim mpg by a factor of 2 or more, and blame big oil for buying the rights and killing the inventor.  this is not responsible in my opinion on many levels.

what you claim is similar, except you as the claimant haven't related to us the minute details of how your system works, what loads are covered, how many loads are provided for at the same time, etc.

simply coming here and claiming that the little engine and puny alternator runs my whole house and my complete machine shop is just not
something that is not going to go unchallenged.

if we don't challenge claims then this forum will soon become a worthless collection of wild ass claims and the signal to noise ratio will make it so no one will take it with any level of seriousness.

i will leave you with this,

we have a member who has a dozer that he has repurposed for another use, it came without an engine so he with a batch of gearing attached a small gas engine (about 6hp or so iirc).  believe me if he was to claim that the dozer goes out and moves dirt in his business everyday,  he would certainly be challenged.  while the engine powers the dozer he also reports that its speed is something slower than a crawl which would be expected.  so yes while it is possible to power a dozer with a 6hp gas engine, you just aren't going to move much dirt with it, certainly not in any amount one might expect with a similar sized dozer.  that member is responsible in that he reported what he did, how he did it and also the true results and outcome of the project.

so far you claim to have a 200mpg carburetor

hopefully this makes sense to you.

btw, merry christmas to you and your family too

bob g

[sailawayrb]

I dunno Bob G., a couple of years ago this could have been easily promoted and readily accepted here:

http://listerengine.com/smf/

I think you did a nice job building this site and attracting critical thinkers to join it.  Hope all is going well with you in your new home and best wishes for a happy holiday season!

Bob B.

[OFFGriddnPat]

Bob... BOB, come on man this not rocket science or the task of building your 200 mpg carb..

Thing is I don't have to prove anything, and I don't have the energy to try to convince people on a forum. I will go out of my way to help someone who has an open mind, and really wants to do something like I'm doing.  "Doing" is the descriptive word here.

It just surprises me to no end, when I read a guy's comment on pulling 95 amps from a 6.5hp and an alternator. Being the fact that I have done that for what- 12 years now, and running one almost daily has shown that you cannot put that kind of load on a little 6.5, without running it the dirt.

20-30 amps yes for about 5 hours on a gallon of fuel. 40 amps definitely but your load is starting to  effect fuel consumption. 50 amps, yes- but now you're putting a grunt load on it. 60 on up, forget it. You need a bigger engine.

So that is what brought me here in the first place.

But running my shop is not the "Space Shuttle" task you are envisioning. It is really quite simple.

Yes I glance over at my inverter while running some CNC programs as I know when I'm pushing it. I glance at it, so I know when to increase the throttle on my 9hp Honda running a Delco alt, to simply keep the amps coming in, ahead of the load being pulled.  That's it.

Are there limitations? Well of course. I have 3 industry standard CNC machines here, and with the old battery bank of 12- L16's ( purchased in 1999) with an Outback inverter, and just the 9hp/alt feeding them, I can't run the machines at one time.

Almost did yesterday. I have 2 Hardinge CNC lathes, and was trying to run 2- low power consuming programs, 2 different tasks one for each machine, and it just almost did it.  

Now part of that problem is the second machine has a big 5hp (3phase) motor which is overkill for my small die parts. It's pulling way more amps just to turn, and I will be swapping that out with a 3hp motor.

But for a one man shop, I can run parts all day with one CNC machine.

But wait... There's more!

On the house system, I have another much newer bank of 12-L16's with a trace SW4000 inverter. I have a line ran to the shop set up to safely pull 35amps @ 120VAC.  With that I run my manual machines- a Bridgeport mill, a Hardinge Chucker lathe, a Logan 11x28" lathe, air compressor, and all bench grinders etc.  These machines run independent of the my other inverter system, which is strictly for the CNC machines.

So anyone knows in the machining business, even with CNC there are what is known as "Second Op" machines. Normally manual machines that are used to finish CNC parts, like debur and edge, tap a hole, etc. While I run parts on CNC, I do second ops all day. I can run 2 of those (manual) machines at once, as I have them modified to run on single phase 120v, and safely pull under my 35 amp circuit.

If I need to run all day, and the house trace system is running low, I simply fire up the little 6.5 (knockoff)/Napa Delco alt. I also have a panel array on that system, and a 16hp (knockoff)/Napa Delco alt, that I pretty much use for backup and fast charging if I need to.  I have a the 16hp set for 55 amps, the 6.5 for 10- 35 amps when I want a light charge, and the shop CNC 9hp (real Honda)/Delco running by throttle and led lights on the Outback inverter. I don't have an amp meter or Trimetric wired in yet.

So it may sound complicated, but I guess you would just have to see me run to understand how it works. I have currently 2 successful products that I ship world wide. As I fully program my CNC machines, and get all of them up to their full production capability, I will need more power.  That's the next step. Can it be done?  You bet.  But for now I squeak out a living, and build a brand name and market with a loyal client following.

If someone genuinely cares to learn how to run 3phase machines this way off grid with an auto alt, I'll be glad to show you. If it's just a point of proving a theory to the experts here, then forget it. I will not waste my time.

Chow Mien,

Pat

[mobile_bob]

Pat

i think you have pretty well proven my point!

you run what you need in your one man shop and are careful to keep it under your 35amp limit, right?

how is that different than the apollo mission doing all it needed to do and stay under their 14amp limit (from memory)?

my point is this, yes you can do a lot with a small power plant and an alternator, i will buy into that, however the way you came across
in the beginning was you were running a complete shop and your house with one 6.5hp honda clone driving a clone delco 10dn, which
technically might be the case under certain circumstances is not exactly the way it was portrayed.

i still have a few issue's with your claim, and i suspect you can further explain the discrepancies.

you work your shop and keep it under the 35amp limit at 120volts AC, that is what?  about 350amps at 12volts or about 175amps at 24volts?

surely you aren't stating that the little engine and delco are covering that sort of load?  surely you are reaching into the battery bank in order
to get anywhere near that kind of power?  i assume this to be the case, and that is still ok, provided everyone understands this reality and the fact that the engine/alternator is going to have to either work its ass off to recharge what was taken out or run excessively long hours to do so.

what you are describing is nothing new or novel, these sorts of engine driven alternators charging battery bank, using reostat field control and throttle control, being modulated by the operator, have been around for decades if not well over a century.  there is nothing inherently wrong with such a system provided you have the time to monitor and keep up with the unit and its charging of the battery bank.

having said all that, in my experience, most folks having spent large sums of money on a battery bank, an inverter system, solar panels, wind power or whatever, "and" coming from a grid connected experience will 99 times out of a hundred find your system to be too crude and time consuming to manage. most folks do not want to be tethered to their systems to the point that they can't leave for a day or two from time to time.  the risk to batteries is high if you walk away and have no real understanding of what your battery bank needs are, which is generally the case for new to offgrid folks who are reported to have an already high battery failure rate generally due to chronic undercharging.
this i would bet a dollar to a dog turd would be the prevailing problem with your system, that being chronic undercharging, because most folks will tire very quickly to the noise of an engine running almost continuously, and will shut down too soon. this will start the death spiral for any battery. 

undercharge your bank a few times and you lose capacity, which shows up as the battery seeming to charge more quickly, which to a newbie will support the notion of reduced run times, and the process continues until such time that the batteries no longer support the load. now he has real problems which require in some cases herculean efforts to correct (if possible).  now he needs long hours of run time at significantly higher voltages (equalize) which will require him to babysit things much more carefully.

this doesn't even address plate corrosion that Lloyd alluded to earlier in this thread, chronic undercharging will result in stratified electrolyte, which means very strong acid at the bottom of the cells which will erode the plates and cannot be recovered.

we haven't even addressed temperature compensation, or thermal runaway concerns.  in the winter when the batteries are cold they must be charged at a higher voltage, conversely in the summer when they are hot they must be charged at a lower voltage.

yes you can do all these things yourself, but why? 

saving 100-350 bucks on a 3 step controller/regulator would seem to be false economy for most folks.

what is your time worth babysitting or having to monitor the charge rate and make field reostat changes?
having to consult temp compensation charts to determine the voltage step point for the ambeint temperatures
and  having to monitor battery temperatures so that you can taper back when things get hot?

i will also restate this

while i understand your system, and yes it can be made to work and will do the job, i would not use it as my primary
charge source and i would never recommend such a system to anyone under any but one circumstance, that being as a backup
charge source that likely would never be called upon to do any real charging.

you might also take a hard look at these controllers, and read the specifications and what they are capable of doing.

balmars "amp manager" function basically is an electronic transmission, in that no matter how you gear the engine to the alternator
or how small your engine is, what rpm you want to run at, or how big or small your alternator is, the amp manager can be used to
tailor or match the engine's available power to the alternator and get the most out of the alternator in the process.

yes you can do this with belts and pulleys, and careful selection of engine's and alternator matching, however what happens when
things change as they will over time? what happens when the engine starts to get tired, or your fuel blend changes, or due to hot summer
conditions the power is reduced?  you are left with either manually reducing the field via the reostat or cranking up the engine speed.

with the amp manager it is a very simple process to tweak the programming and everything goes right on well matched doing max charge with the available power.

also as previously stated the fuel savings alone will quickly pay for a 3 step controller, this alone should be of most importance when it comes to return on investment?   burn less fuel saves you money? reduces engine wear? reduces noise? pollution?

just as you state you have nothing to prove, i too have nothing to prove, however many of us are not simply going to sit back and let
some of your assertions go without question. to do so would not be responsible to the membership and many visitors to this forum.

bob g

[OFFGriddnPat]

Well Bob you make some good points. Pretty much changed the argument all together for lack of a better term, and the argument towards me here has flip flopped more than a politician. That's why I don't have the energy for a forum like this.

By all means, run a controller. Heck- if I had the extra funds and the time to play with one I would love to.

Can you run a shop with CNC machines, and a household bigger than a UnaBomber Shack with an auto alt? You bet. No matter what I do here, it all comes down to 1kW of PV's and the auto alt generating power.  How you wish to run it is your business.

I run our household, computers, printers, LCD flat screen, Hughes Sat, dishwasher, clothes washer, lights, chest freezer, ceiling fans and every modern appliance accept the BIG hogs that you don't run off grid, plus machines all day in the shop for about 3 gallons of fuel per day on average.  No battery damage is happening here. Does everything single thing run at once?  No.

We pick up 3- 6 gallon cans of regular gas every week. That's it.  A lot of money for the price of fuel these days, but for a home and shop producing an income, pretty darn doable for me and as my income and business increases, I will work to improve my systems.  You got to start somewhere.

Next- woodgasification on a practical level including practical fuel production. I'm currently planning and designing systems and a method of running this property without dino fuel when need be.

[OFFGriddnPat]

Oh, by the way...

I see I didn't send you a PM. I sent an email to you at an address that starts with- "notblueeyes"

[Henry W]

Pat, Pat, Pat..........

Your quote: I run my shop here at home off grid, run machines all day, 6 days a week including specifics for running 3 phase machines off the lowly poor auto alternator.

And now what is it, Email or PM?

Instead of talking about what your system can do lets see some #'s. Otherwise what are we to believe?

Henry

[OFFGriddnPat]

-Yawn- ...

Are most of you guys here this brilliant? ...

I've got to get to work.

[mobile_bob]

Pat

two things if i might

first, if you have a sent copy of your email please resend it!  my filter probably kept me from noticing it when it came in.
if you can let me know and i will look for it.

secondly, you have to understand most of us here have been around the block more than once, this is not our first rodeo
and not the first time someone has popped in with bold claims and little real info and solid testing to support their claims.

we have had vigorous debate/arguement/discussion over all sorts of subjects relating to power production and all that entails.

if you want to discuss your system and your claims, then by all means lets do it!  

having said that, making rude comments about others "brilliance" does nothing to support your claims, rather it places you in
a category of someone most will not take at all seriously.

remember bold claims require equally strong evidence, and will be challenged.  that is just the way it is here, like it or not.

telling us that your little delco which is capable of producing about a kwatt or power, running 3 hours per day (or 3 gallons per day) will power your house and your machine shop, complete with cnc machines and big screen tv's even with the support of a kwatt of solar panels is a pretty good feat.  so one should expect some rather pointed questions i would think?

perhaps not?

bob g