Battery Cables!

[Tom T]

You should never use a modife tool to crimp with becouse it will not pass an inspection by the inspector if he asks and he my ask to see it I have been there and it is not fun to pull the whole thing apart and start over. Was on a job one time that the man that  did just that and the inspector could tell by looking a t the lugs I did not know but got in trouble for it cost the company thousands of dollars. Tom T

[Lloyd]

I don't and won't recommend a solder joint even if it's crimped on a high amperage low voltage cable ....period.

Why, your more likely to make a high resistance joint that will work harden and be subject to wire breakage just like in pic #1.

I know you ask why and how come some recommend it. It's old outdated technology that has been proven wrong over and over. Some just can't or won't accept it.

It's very difficult to make a good solder joint on such big cable, because you have to heat the cable and the lug evenly, and get the solder to flow, and bond to each strand and all surfaces of the lugs. By the time that happens you're just short of melting the insulation on the cable, and the heat causes the solder to wick up far inside the cable under the insulation.

Now you have created a joint that is subject work hardening and breakage, which is exacerbated by the fine stranded wire. Type 2 & 3 wire are very fine strands, welding cable is even finer stranded then type 3.

Next if you don't get the wire stranding hot enough to make a fusion solder then, you are creating a high resistance connection, because the solder will actually just encase the strands, which will hinder amperage capacity not help. The only thing solder adds to a properly crimped joint if done right is decreased corrosion. With closed ended lugs and heatshrink, and a good crimp, is a far superior way to make a joint corrosion resistant, and low resistance. Solder is a waste of time, and  money, and more likely to lessen the quality of the joint, especially when the solder joint is done by someone with little or no experience.

Casey, in your case solder would be a bad move, don't do it.

Lloyd

[Mad_Labs]

Lloyd,

what do you think of cripmers like this one:
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS328US328&q=lug+crimper&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=7670208563474251882&sa=X&ei=VBF2TovzMpLbiALpw5mzAg&ved=0CFsQ8wIwAQ#

Much cheaper for the poverty stricken like myself.

Jonathan

[LowGear]

I don't and won't recommend a solder joint even if it's crimped on a high amperage low voltage cable ....period.

Hmmmm, that doesn't leave much room for interpretation.  I did notice that the shop that supplied my solar panels did "crimp only" the wires they supplied now that I think about it.  They also charged my about $7 a click.  Thankfully I needed only two custom cables as the inverter ends go into a screw lug with torque settings.

Thanks again for your knowledgeable answers.

Casey

[LowGear]

Spring loaded pivot bar, designed for use with a hammer or vise.

That vise option could improve finished product consistency.  Or do you have access to a metered press?

Casey

[Lloyd]

Lloyd,

what do you think of cripmers like this one:
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS328US328&q=lug+crimper&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=7670208563474251882&sa=X&ei=VBF2TovzMpLbiALpw5mzAg&ved=0CFsQ8wIwAQ#

Much cheaper for the poverty stricken like myself.

Jonathan

Mad_Labs,

I have that same crimper, in my toolbox and have used it a number of times, and the joints are fine. Below I suggested that tool with a vise. The pic of the unit that I posted is only $100.00 more, but in time that long handled mechanical crimper will save me thousands.

Lloyd

[WStayton]

Hi All!

Lloyd:

  You say: "I don't and won't recommend a solder joint even if it's crimped on a high amperage low voltage cable ....period."

  Upon further/again rereading the Xantrex Manual, it  says:  "Battery cables must have crimped copper compression lugs OR (emphasis added) crimped and soldered copper compression lugs. . . . Lugs must be rated for use with fine-stranded cable."

  So, I guess I am okay to use a crimped only connection on the cables and NYSEG can't say anything!  That's a relief!  (Message to self:  Read more carefully, next time, Dummy!)

  Thanx for the complete description of the proper and not-so cable ends.  I sort of figured that the split-type were kind of a joke, and your expose reinforces that.

  About the "Lugs must be rated for use with fine-stranded cable." part of the manual - will the lugs that I buy come with a certification that says that they meet some spec that is the rating for "fine-stranded" cable?  And, if so, do you, or anyone else, for that matter, know what that spec designation is???  The last thing I want to do is assemble the cables and have NYSEG say "Show us that the terminals meet the apropriate spec!" and then not be able to do so and have to chop them all out and start over!

  About water and welding cables:  Since I am not going to be in a marine environment and, I would think that water would not be a problem - the roof is tight, and the building is reasonably weatherproof - is encrochment of water into the cables something that I need to worry about?  I THINK that, since the Xantrex Manual only says that I should use fine wire cable, that ANY fine wire cable would meet this requirement.  I don't want to use something that is going to make a problem, but I don't want to solve problems that don't exist, either - particularly if solving these non-existent problems costs me money! Remember, I'm CHEAP!  <grin>  So is water in the cable a non-problem on dry land in a tight building, with proper terminals that are shrink-wrapped and sealed, or do I need to worry about it too?


Tom T:

  You say: "You should never use a modifed tool to crimp with becouse it will not pass an inspection by the inspector if he asks and he my ask to see it . . . "

  Good point, I hadn't though of that!

  The Proper size die IS avaiable for the hydraulic press I noted, though it has to come from Great Britain and it costs, after shipping and handling, almost as much as the rest of the tool!

  I view of the cost of getting a "factory" set up, I think that I am better off using a crimper such as the one noted by Mad_Labs and using a vise to get repeatable crimps and just forgetting about the hydraulic crimper!


DanG:

  Good piont about coating/sleeving before inspection by NYSEG - I hadn't though about THAT either!  <grin> 

  About the "proper" die for the hydraulic swager - folks who have modified a size 0 die to the 4/0 size report that it swages the cable nicely but, as noted above, I don't think I can use something that is not a factory part so that is kind of a non starter.

  I am sort of sold on the vise-type crimper at this point - my point of view is that after the solar installatin is complete the chances that I waill do ANY more crimped cables are slim and none, so, being cheap, I am loathe to spend a $100 to do the job faster when I have lots of time!  <grin>  That, of course, is a differnt view point than someone who does dozens of cables day in day out, where saving a few minutes per cable would/might be significant!

  Thanx for all the input, guys - you keep raising issues that I haven't thought of - in fact, it seems like there are more things that I haven't thought of than I HAVE!  That's one of the things I like about airing the dirty laundry here first, you find out what is wrong with what you are planning without actually having to do it and then have the failure to learn! <grin>

  Keep 'em coming!

Regardz,

Wayne Stayton

[Lloyd]

Wayne,

Be sure to make sure that your codes will allow the use of welding cable to be installed in a building some don't. Also most welding cable is only to 300 volts and the NEC requires cables installed to a building be rated at 600 volts. Also NEC requires that cables installed to a building meet certain insulation standards. I'm not sure welding cable will meet any of the NEC standards.

Just remember the old Rule being  "frugal is not the same as being cheap", and it's always 4 times as expensive to R&R as compared to doing it right the first time. Frugal looks to save money by finding the best price on the product or service without compromising the quality. Cheap looks to save a penny, only to burn dimes replacing an inferior product or service.

Or in other words the most expensive job is the job done twice, a job done right the first time is cheaper by 2squared, even if it cost twice as much as the first job done the wrong.

Lloyd

[Lloyd]

Dispelling a Myth
Some folks recommend a combination of soldering in
addition to crimped joints for reliability. Keep in mind that
the Boeings, Beeches, Pipers and even the lowly Cessnas
haven't soldered a terminal on a wire in over 30 years.
People like AMP and Molex have carved an honorable
place for themselves in the aviation marketplace selling
termination systems that do not require solder to achieve
the highest levels of reliability. Please forget the solder.

[vdubnut62]

Hey Wayne, I'm kinda of the cheap persuasion myself, so.... have you looked into maybe renting the proper hydraulic crimper for a weekend?
Just saying.
Ron

[LowGear]

Hi Wayne,

When I'm concerned about a question of code, procedure or product I stop by the inspectors office in the morning while they're still there and ask for an opinion on what they want or like to see.  In the two areas that I've worked both were assigned to an area and worked it much like a beat.

Casey

[Lloyd]

All things electrical need smoke to work , never let the smoke get out. I searched for cans of smoke at times to try and get the smoke back in. Very difficult.

A1 re crimps.

Dave

__________________
"logic" - A way of going wrong with confidence

[Lloyd]

Re: Proper battery conections
Smoke is frequently observed to come out of electrical/electronic components when overheated, often through exposure to an extreme current, usually caused by a low-resistance failure or the application of excess voltage. Manufacturers such as Lucas (the inventer of the short circuit), put a portion of magic smoke into every electronic component, and the device functions normally so long as the smoke does not escape. Once the magic smoke has been released, the device lacks one or more key components and no longer functions correctly. The smoke thus can be thought of as an essential part in the device's function. It is also noted that once let out, the magic smoke cannot be put back in (except with the proper service part, as below).

As per usual, Main Sail got it right, even without photos.

[WStayton]

Hi all!


LowGear:

  I have two separate and independent inspector's to worry about.

  The township code inspector is a nice guy, about my age (i.e. elderly!  <grin>)  and freely admits that he doesn't know ANYTHING about solar!  His approach so far, when he has wandered by every couple of weeks or so, is to ask a few questions and, so far he has seemed to like my answers and has gone away happy.

  The NYSEG inspector is another can of worms all together.  Actually, NYSEG has TWO, count 'em, inspectors to cover about half of the state.  One of them is, aparently a nice guy who tries to help in any way that he can, the other one is a P$%#K, there just isn't any other suitable description for him!  Guess which one I got!!!

  NYSEG's policy is that they will not send an inspector out until you are ready to have them inspect the installation and turn on, or not, the power, so you are kinda left hanging, unless you want to pay $200 or $300 (I've heard both numbers) for a courtesy inspection - Thanx, but no thanx!

  From talking to a couple of other folks who have been down this road, their counsel was to wait until the jerk makes an appearance and promptly red tags everything and then complain to NYSEG that their inspector is unreasonable, and mumble something about law suits, and they will send the other inspector and THEN you can fix anything that NEEDS fixing!  So, that is the current plan of attack!

  NOTHING is ever easy!

  The actual code inspector is not, and I don't think will be, a problem - in fact he is quite helpful, having been there and done that, at least for conventional electricty, for the last forty years!

  Oh, and to show you how small of a place this is, the township has ONE inspector for everything - structural, electrical, plumbing, etc., etc.  If it is a part of a builiding, he is THE inspector for the township!


vdubnut62:

  I would be tickled pink to rent a swager instead of buy one, but where, in a small town, would you look to rent one?

  The yellow pages produces several rental type places but mostly they rent party tables and cement mixers and commonly used items - I have not specifically asked any of them if they have a "cable swager" to rent, but I sorta envison a blank stare followed by a "What's that?".  <grin>

  I will make a few phone calls, though, before I plop my money down to buy one, and ask if they rent a cable swager or know of some place that does!  I may be pleasantly surprised!



  About "magic smoke":

  It has been my experience that not only is every device known to mankind filled with magic smoke, but the magic smoke is different and specific to the device in question.

  And, yes the process of smoke release is COMPLETELY irreversable!  <grin>

  In fact, the smoke is so elusive that, for some items, you can't even see it - just the results (i.e. loss of function) of having released it!

  And that's enough said about that subject!  <smile>


  About the temperature certification of Welding Cable:

  I assume that if the manual says just "fine wire" cable, with no spec, then I can use ANY fine wire cable I want - and I will make a very vigerous argument against anybody who tells me otherwise - since the electricity is relatively low voltage DC and not something that NYSEG is normally going to be concerned about I THINK that I can make that stick with the manual in front of them and again mumbling something about lawsuit and harrassment!   <grin>

  At least that's going to be my first shot if I can get somebody to tell me that water in the cable is not something that I need to be concerned about for my installaion in a non-marine, relatively dry (I hope!  <grin>) environment that is weather tight and weather proof.

   Again, thanx for the input everybody - you are raising issues that I would never have thought of!

Regardz,

Wayne Stayton

[Lloyd]

Here is a pic of one of the problems of welding cable, and the very fine strands. Just remember everything has it design purpose, and somethings can cross over other things can't...it's the difference between frugal and cheap.

Also note the paper wrapper hanging out.

The NEC concerns it's self to all things installed to a building, AC or DC. I don't know of one municipality that doesn't use their standard.

IN re moisture wicking...yes it happens even when installed to a building, it's caused by the heating and cooling of the cable, that is what draws the moisture from the air into the cable.

Lloyd