ST Generator Head Report

[WStayton]

Hi, Guys!

  Well, I plopped down the money for a single phase, two bearing, 24 kW Generator Head from Georgia Generator.

  I have to report that they have three flavors of 2 bearing, ST Generator Heads - differancesa re as follows:

Version "A" (I'll use A, B & C because Geogia Gnerators nomenclature was, I think, very confusing!) is their basic ST generator head, that has "fair" quality insulation and nothing like an AVR.

Version "B" is the same as version "A" except that it has superior quality insulation, and, again, no AVR.

Version "C" is a slightly more robust unit (it weighs about 50 lbs more than the other two) with the superior quality insulation and has an AVR as a part of the package.

  The "C" version, which was what I ordered, is about $865 if ordered directly from Georgia Generator and you don't involve fleabay in the transaction.

  I also ordered a Lovejoy connector which was about $85 and the shipping on the whole shebang was slghtly more than $150, to Elmira, NY - Making the out-the-door price for the whole package $1,103.00.

  I cried a little thinking about one direct from China at $375, including transportation, but I consoled myself with the thought that I would get, from China, whatever was the minimum that they could stuff in the box and not have a lot of complaints, so the insulation quality had to be at least as poor as G/G's option "A", if not worse.

  Also, having the AVR installed by somebody else was attractive to me, in that it left one less place that I could screw-up and have a VERY expensive paper weight! <grin>

  The Generator comes with an extra set of brushes and that was all the spare parts that they recommended that I buy!  They also reported that converting back to a "normal" ST unit, if the AVR died (or was electrocuted by an EMP) was simply a matter of reconnecting the wires in a non-AVR configuration - drawing to be included.  The obviously didn't go to the "fast-Eddy" school of salesmanship that most used car salesmen ar graduates of!

  I asked about a spare set of bearings and they implied that if could wear out the originals in the first 10,000 hours of operation, they would GIVE me a set of bearings and that, further, failure was a reasonably long process that was easily detected by somebody who was not a complete idiot!  On this recommendation I demurred and didn't order an extra set of bearings, inas much as 10,000 hours is about 40 years in the type of service I am anticipating and I suspect that I will have more serious personal failures before 10,000 hours are up!  <smile>

  Now all I have to do is get the engine overhauled and figure out how to hook the Lovejoy to the transmission output shaft.  The Mercedes transmission comes with a rubber center disc with a device that looks like a plumbing flange on each end of it that is part of  the trasnmissiuon shaft and connects to the drive shaft in the car.  I'm sorta inclined to keep the "coupler" just because it takes up any slight misalignment in the driveshaft and, even if I elminate it, I am left with a shaft that ends in a "plumbing flang" to deal with.

  Just thought you guys would like to know that an ST generator head is not the full description!  <smile>

Regardz,

Wayne Stayton

[rcavictim]

Way to go bro!  I was a bit disappointed though to hear you hadn't gone with a 12 wire, 24 or 30 kW, 3-phase unit.  Much superior waveform.  Could make life a lot less miserable on some picky loads like computer UPS'.

[WStayton]

rcavictim:

   About single vs three phase unit:  I specifically asked if the single phase unit with the AVR would have a waveform that was acceptable to everything that I planned to hook to it.  G/G's reply was that they would guarantee that I would not have a problem with ANYTHING that I listed for them that was running on the generator with its included AVR.  If I was to use a unit with no AVR, then I was on my own and could take my chances, but they didn't THINK that I would have a problem with anything that I listed even if I didn't spring for an AVR.

  That was sufficient reassurance, to me, that I was willing to take a single phase unit - especially since a three phase unit would be a BIG problem to wire up so that I could connect to the mains, which is required to secure any of the tax benefits!  Since what I don't know about three phase far exceeds what I do know, I thought I was better served to go with a single phase and not invite unknown and known (connectivity) problems with a three phase.  I'l let you know in a year or so if that was a good decision, or not!  <grin>

Regardz,

Wayne Stayton

[rcavictim]

Actually with the 480 volt, 3-phase, 12 wire head there are two ways to easily wire it up to produce 120-0-120 volt single phase which utilizes all the windings.  Then you have the option of a 3-phase machine on hand IF you every need it in future plans.  That PLUS we know with no guesswork that the three phase head makes a very nice waveform bnecause we have test results as proof.  IIRC this was already covered at length in previous discussions.

Naturally I wish you the best outcome with your purchase decision and welcome waveform reports once you are operational.  Do you have access to an oscilloscope and digital camera?

[WStayton]

rcavictim:

   "Do you have an Oscillscope and a digital camera?"

  The answer is 1) Yes, sort of and 2) Nope, all cameras are stricly analog.

  My o'scope is, I think, surplus left over from Columbus' second voyage - I think it predates electricity and runs on kerosene!  <grin>
But it DOES work rather well for most things - lightweight and digital, not even remotely, but functional, yes, very.

  I sort of missed the boat when all of photography went digital ten years ago or so, so I am still limping along with my ancient 135 equipment - though flim availability is beginning to be a problem, so I may be forced to join the digital age, eventually.  I was sort of surprised when everybody tossed out their perfectly good/functional
optical analog equipment and immediately went to digital units - something I stubbornly refused to do as long as what I had was perfectly functional which, so far, it has been.

  I have always had a problem with buying the latest and greatest just because it was the last word in function and made one, immediately, one of the technological elite.  Hence, I suppose, the reason that I like old diesels and brush-type ST generators.  They are slightly more complicated than a rock, can be dropped out of an airplane and, if cought before the fifth bounce, still work!  Admittedly, a modern, high pressure common-rail diesel is a few percentage points higher in efficiency than my old, stone-age, plunger injection pump diesels, but, if the s#!t hits the fan, I can still, maybe, keep a mechanical injection pump running - something new and modern, with a digital injection pump full of integrated-circuits is, probably, going to be just ballast in a drastic loss of technology scenario.

   You pays your money, makes your choices and takes your chances - only time tells whether the choices you made were good one's or not! <grin>

Regardz,

Wayne Stayton

[rcavictim]

I stopped using my 35mm Minolta film format SLR ages ago.  I send a lot of pictures around to friends on internet and document my DIY projects rather thoroughly in photos.  $25 to get a roll of 36 prints developed and printed and then hours spent on a flatbed scanner was killing me.  For what two rolls of developed film cost me I can now buy a darned good yet inexpensive digital camera.  With people upgrading to more megapixels you could probably get a 3 or 5 megapixel camera donated to you for free.  Sure it bothered me that I had money tied up in now obsolete camera gear and lenses.  I got over it.  What else can you do, nobody will buy that stuff.

I don't own any small digital scopes.  I have several 60 -120 MHz dual trace analog delayed timebase units from Philips, Hewlett Packard and B&K, a couple of vacuum tube Tektronix 561 and 564, the 564 being a dual trace storage scope and a 20 MHz Gould dual trace non delayed TB.  I use them all except the 561.  I have a polaroid film scope camera.  When I got my first digital camera I used that to grab a color (Whoohoo!) screen photo and I was seriously impressed.  Anyone wanna buy a Tek scope camera cheap? 

[WStayton]

rcavictim:

  " . . . wanna buy a Tek scope camera cheap? "

   Ah, um, er,  . . . didn't they quit making film for those?  And so, is a camera without film, still a camera???  Webster's says that a camera is a device capable of producing images, either posistive or negative, through the means of film or a digital media.  So, is a camera for which there is NO flim, still a camera?  I guess there is a market for EVERYTHING, but I'm not a buyer for THIS thing!!! <grin>

  Nice try, but no sale!  <smile>  Though it WOULD fit right in with my kerosene powered o'scope!!!!

Regardz,

Wayne Stayton

[WStayton]

Hi Guys!

  Well, I picked up the 24 kW St head from the Roadway freight terminal tonight.

  There were TWO very slight problems!  (Doesn't it seem like there is always something that throws a stick in the works?? <grin>)

  Problem One:  They couldn't find the generator head on its pallet in their warehouse!!!  It took them half an hour and they moved at least a hundred pieces of freight before they found it sitting way, way in the back, under a higher shelf full of stuff!

  Problem Two:  Their warehouse wasn't designed to deliver freight to a pickup truck - all of their "gates" are four feet off of the ground, for a conventional trailer.  AND, my pickup has a fiberglass topper over the bed, so I was sure that there would be a problem.  Oh yea of little faith!  <grin>  They produced a forklift with extendable forks that they looped through a chain run through the pallet under the ST Head, and then had me back up about three feet from a gate, opened the overhead door, drove the dangling ST generator out the door, lowered it to pick-up bed height and then extended the forks and set it in the pickup bed gentle-er than a mother laying a baby in his crib!  <smile>  I was impressed, expecially since the guy driving the forklift looked like he had been shaving for at least three weeks and drove at one speed - just a fast as that fork-lift would go!!! <grin>

   Now all I have to do is deliver it to it's new home, and figure out some way to get a 425 lb crate out of the back of my pickup WITHOUT a fancy extendable, or any other kind, of forklift!!!

  I'll tell you tomorrow, how that went!!!

Regardz,

Wayne Stayton

[WStayton]

Hi Guys!

  Well, I got it in the building and got the crate off of it so I could at least see it!

  Getting it in the building was not as bad as I had thought that it would be, even though the crate weighed 425 pounds.  I backed the trusty pickup up to the oversize door (48") slid a couple of rough cut (so full 2x) maple 2x4's through the pallet, then put the other ends inside of the door, hooked on a come along and, after several take-up/restart cycles, there it was, in the building neat as could be!

  The "display" is some sort of LED display that is about 1" by 4 " and is mounted in the throw-away sheet metal box on the top of the unit.  I didn't open it and look, but I presume there are several wires that I will have to cut and extend when I put the display in the to-be-built generator bench.

  For the record, the VERY SKETCHY directions say to remove all load from the machine, and then to disconnect it from any possible load before shutting down - no other steps to be taken to preserve the residual magnetism and the AVR. (via an open switch - is what I'm planning).

  The other thing that surprised me was how heavy the Lovejoy connector was that was sitting in the corner of the box/carton.  I grabbed hold of the box to pick it up, and the box tore away from the coupling as though it was bolted/glued to the crate!!!  When I did, finally. pick it up, it must have weighed 25 pounds!  That seems like a huge lump of steel to transfer 32 HP, but, on the other hand, I have never heard of a Lovejoy coupling failing, except for the rubber thingy in the middle, so maybe overdesign is good! <grin>

  I am MOST eager to hook it up, but I suppose that I need to finish up the electrical installation in the building, which was previously Amish owned and non-electrified until I came upon the scene!  Anybody know any crawl-space rats?  Stringing conduit and wire through the crawl space is what I have left to complete the job!  Working in an empty building with out the benefit of any (well, almost any) power tools has been a new experience for me - makes me much more appreciative of how things were done in my Grandfather's day - before there were cordless drills and LED lights you can hold in your mouth (for short jobs!) or duct tape to your hat for long ones! <smile>  Made me much more appreciative of hats, and duct tape, too! <grin>

  And then, after the electrical work is completed, there is an engine to overhaul, and a mount to fabricate and a generator and engine and transmisson to mount, and some solar electrical panels to mount and batteries to position, and a heat reservoir to build, and a solar hot water panel to build, and base-board heating to install in the house, and a hot water furnace to plumb in and hook up, and about a mile of plumbing to hook everything together, and, and . . . well, you get the picture, my time is pretty much spoken for for the next TWO years!!!  Not to mention that the "house" is still an empty 24' x 36' space, awaiting my tender ministrations as a carpeter to erect some walls and build some closets, etc.  Oh, yea, and a bathroom fits in there some place, too!  I've used the outhouse, that came with the property, exactly once - and that WAS enough of that!!! <grin>

  Anyhow, I did get the generator-head positioned where it belongs, +/- about 4 feet!  AND it arrive in good shape, so far as I can determine, and seems to be well and happy!  <grin>

  Thanks to every body who has held my hand, so far - it is appreciated!

Regardz,

Wayne Stayton

[2004farmertom]

I Wanted to see if you had your unit wired up I also had bought from Central Georiga Generator Beining some what electrialy challenged was looking for information on the wiring part of the instal
Tom

[WStayton]

2004farmer:

  I took a one month forced vacation when I dropped a 300 block of granite on my hand!!!  The good news is that I was released, today, to go back to work, with the admonition "If it hurts, STOP". <grin>  The way I do things, it ALWAYs hurts, so I guess I'll sorta ignore that!

  I'm still about a month from starting on the generator end of things - first I've got to finsish up the electrical install and get hooked to the mains so I have electricity to work with!  <grin>

  I'll let you know what happens, when it happens!

Regardz,

Wayne Stayton

[TheEquineFencer]

I just joined this group today. The reason I joined was becuase of this thread I found while searching ST generator ends. May I ask how to get a ST end as you described for $375.00? I just had a buddy drop off a 115 HP Isuzu Diesel from a trooper I plan to do about the same project as you appear to have succeded at. I'd like to know how you did your governor controls and such when you have time and I have some more time to follow up on it. Thanks, Floyd.

[WStayton]

TheEquineFencer:

  The $375 number is from a very old post and was for a direct purchase, as in right from the manufacturer in China, a a lot of TWENTY pieces, that would have been about $375 each.

  I was discouraged from trying to do that by the folks on here in that you have absolutely no control over what you get - Once you send them the money, you just basicaly sit and wait and see what they send you - it may be okay and what you want, and it may not, but as a one time purchaser, you have relatively little cotrol over the process and trying to pursue them legally in another country with a different legal system in a different language is NOT going to happen.

  I wound up ordering/receiving a 24 kW ST Head from Georgai Generator, the principal of which is a member herein.  The price with shipping and a Lovejoy connector was a little north of a thousand dollars, when all was said and done.  The transaction, with a company in Georgia, US, was relatively painless and they took care of finding the shipper and getting it to the freight terminal that I specified from the one's they listed.  I recommend them highly - they are not the VERY cheapest way in the world but they are about the cheapest retail outlet on this side of the big pond.

  For control, I have been wrestling around with a digital generator control unit made by Generac, a domestic generator company, that I am in hopes will do the job, but Generac's documentation and there response to questions, if your not going to buy a dozen generators is much less than spectacular. I just guessed what actuator wne with what control unit and wound up with two that do not, automatically, plug together.  I am engaged in tyring to find out, now, from Generac, if I wire the two pieces together, will they work.  So far, response has been almost zero!

  I can, now, since I know the right part number, order the actuator that goes with the control that I have, for another $100 and I THINK that that will solve the problem - though I willl only have two units to plug together with NOTHING that tells me what the six wires between them do to which function. 

  If you like, I can give you the part numbers for the two units that are supposed to work together, but there is an issue that there may be a connector that goes between the two units that ISN'T specified by part number in the Generac "blurb" that comes with the control unit.  If this is the case, you would have the same problem all over again of two male connectors, except that you know if you hook the wires together properly it WILL work.

  Your 115 HP Isuzu diesel sounds like it is a quite a bit bigger than the 2.4 liter, 74 HP Mercedes unit that I am using - that isn't hoked up and/or running yet, BTW.  Is your engine the 4JB1-T?  As I recall, that is about 115 Hp and is a direct injected turbo charged 4 cylinder of 93 mm bore and 102 mm stroke for 2.771 Liters displacement.  If you direct coupled it to an ST generator head at 1800 rpm, you should get something like 35 kW - quite a lot of power for a domestic application!  Be advised that as diesel likes to run at at least 70% of available powere to run hot enough to not foul injectors, etc., etc., and in a domestic setting you may be seriously over-engined.

  In my case, I THINK that the Mercedes is capable of just producing about 22 kW at 1800 rpm and that is at 100% of available power, something that I don't think is advised for the long term life of the engine.  My plan is to run the ST generator head via direct dirve, unless I need the last 4 kW of output, and then to shift the Mercedes transmission, that I am going to include in the driveline, into third gear and then the engine will be at about 2560 rpm and capable of about 27 kW, which should be fine driving a 24 kW head at max output,

  In your case, the engine should be capable of putting out 35 kW at 100%, or about 30 kW at 85% which is about right for continuous duty AND a size for which there is an ST head.  However, if you are running a house with the generator, most houses only have a 24 kW max uptake with a 200 amp main-panel/main-breaker set up, so you will be constrained to run at about 68% of available porwer which is border line low, since it is rare for everything to run at the limit, electrically.  If you're planning on running a couple of houses, etc., etc., ignore all the foregoing!  <grin>

  If there is any information that I can give you that you need, just speak up - everybody here will tell you what you're doing is wrong, but they will attempt to help you!  <smile>

  The foregoing is worth exactly what you paid for it!  <grin>

Regardz,

Wayne Stayton

[TheEquineFencer]

Send me some pictures of your controls you got from generac if you would. I had a tornado come throught here in April and Have not got things straight yet. In my stuff that's stored, I have a few CD's from Generac with generac controls and such. It may have something about the control you have. I'll look for them when I finish rewiring the horse barn and the G/F's off my butt. Then I can start rewiring the shop. I also have  a parts list for what comes in a "kit" from generac. It is as follows:


No specs
021927                 1.000  EA
STUD #10-32 X 2.25 FTH         
022097                 2.000  EA
WASHER LOCK M6-1/4             
022152                 6.000  EA
WASHER LOCK #10                 
022158                 6.000  EA
NUT HEX #10-32 STEEL           
022473                 1.000  EA
WASHER FLAT 1/4-M6 ZINC         
033138                 1.000  EA
SCREW HHM #10-32 X 5/8
  043116                 2.000  EA
SCREW HHC M6-1.0 X 12 G8.8       
043180                 1.000  EA
WASHER FLAT M4                   
049226                 2.000  EA
WASHER LOCK M5                   
051713                 2.000  EA
WASHER FLAT M5                   
051716                 2.000  EA
NUT HEX M5-0.8 G8 CLEAR ZINC     
052618                 1.000  EA
SCREW HHC M5-0.8 X 12 C8.8       
052619                 1.000  EA
SCREW HHC M5-0.8 X 20 G8.8       
060015                 1.000  EA
FITTING CONDUIT 90D 3/8"         
064526                 2.000  EA
SCREW HWHS #6-25 X 3/8 ZNC       
069825                 1.000  EA
BALL JOINT #10-32 RH             
098225                 4.000  EA
SCREW PFHST #2 X 5/8             
098290                 1.000  EA
ASSY MOTOR STEPPER               
0986470SRV             1.000  EA
ASY, LC ELEC GOVNR               
098782                 1.000  EA
BRACKET,STEP MOTOR               
098783                 1.000  EA
LEVER STEPPER MOTOR             
098784                 1.000  EA
LEVER,INJECT PUMP               
098941A                2.000  EA
HOUSING, GOV CONNECT             
098942A                2.000  EA
COVER, CONN HOUSING             
098958                 1.000  EA
ASSY PCB CONN INTERFACE 100"     
099345                 1.000  EA
BALL JOINT #10-32 PLASTIC             

I've also located an outfit out of Inda that will sella governor control that will regulate Hz by using the teeth off the flywheel. It comes with the controller, actuator, and mag pick up. It looks like a Woodward Knock off. For about $200 with shipping I can have a complete governor control ...If I order 100 or more of them. If I order them one at a time, it's about $350 plus shipping. I'm looking into buying used parts from big generators to use on my generator when I build it. You might say I have a little background in power generation. I also have a small load bank at home for testing like I used when I worked for the local Cummins/Onan distributor. I'm looking into using a standard PID control to regulate the Hz when I have time. I'm always screwing around with things that people say can't be done. You sound like a buddy of mine, he's an Engineer too.

[WStayton]

Hi All!

  Well, I FINALLY got back an email from a Generac Supervisor . . . as in somebody who could, sorta, answer my question(s)!

  The actuator/stepper-motor that I bought, a p/n 092059 is not designed to work with the 098647 Control module, and they specifically designed the connector so that they would not plug together for a stepper-motor that won't work with a control module.  Apparently the stepper-motor that I bought is designed for a smaller engine than the 2.0 liter/2.4 liter that the control module goes to.  So, I have to order the p/n 98290 stepper-motor that is for the bigger engine and which will work with the 09867 Control module that I DO have.

  The 98290 stepper-motor will plug directly to the connector on the 09867 control module having a female plug and the stepper motor having a male plug.

  The "connector" "box" that is shown on my diagram that came with the control, is just a "shield" that holds the two connectors together so that they don't unplug - it is not an electrical part, just a mechanical one and not necessary to the function of the unit.

  I was also cautioned to be careful what I ordered, since they make quite a few control modules and MOST of them are not designed to be stand-alone and have to be hooked into their proprietary system control module to work.  The one that I have, p/n 098647, is one of the few that works in stand alone mode and has no hook up for a "system" controller that monitors engine temperature, engine oil pressure, etc., etc. so I got lucky on that one! <grin>

  Hope that this answers a few of the questions - now I have to dig out a $100 and order the right actuator! <smile>

Regardz,

Wayne Stayton