Type of Oil After Engine Overhaul

[WStayton]

Hi, Guys!

  I'm beginning to get things together to tear down and overhaul my Mercedes OM616 4 banger and my experience predates all of the engine oils that are now on the market.

  First, what I intend to do:

1)  Tear everything down to bare components - disassemble the head and grind valves/seats and replace any that are worn beyond limits and probably will need to replace the valve guides, at least the exhaust ones.

2)  On the bottom end, take it down to the bare block and mic the steel dry cylinder liners to see if they are okay - pistons come in up to 0.050 over-size, and the engne has a little over 2,000 hours of marine service on it, so I THINK that the liners will be okay to just hone them and replace the rings and maybe the pistons, if the ring spaces  are worn beyond limits.

3) Everything will get new bearings - crank mains, rod big ends and new bushings on the piston pins with new pins, if required, along with new cam bearings on the top end.

  Putting all of these new parts in, though, is worthless if you don't manage the oil such that everything seats properly and you get the inevitable pieces of metal flushed out of the system.

  For road engines, I was always tought to use straight mineral oil for the first three oil/filter changes and to do those at 500 miles, 1500 miles and 3000 miles, all since overhaul so 500, 1000 and 2000 between oil changes, and then to change to detergent oiil and to run 3000 miles on detergent before changing. 

  For a generator engine would I just divide by 50 and therefore do the changes with straight mineral oil at 10 hours, 30 hours and 60 hours since overhaul with subsuquent oil changes with detergent diesel oil at 60 hour intervals thereafter???

  Also, what about synthetic diesel oils that are advertised as the latest and greatest?  I have thought that if I am using 65% WVO, after the first three oil changes, that I should still change at 60 hours to make sure that I am not accumulating a mess in the oil pan, and if I still change at 60 hours, the benefit of using synthetic is wasted so I wouldn't even consider it.  Good idea or bad?

  Also, I will have a transmission in the drive train so I can run the engine at 1800 rpm in fourth, 2560 rpm in third and 3500 (I think) in 3rd, so I can vary the speed a little but I can not vary the speed infinitely like you can in a vehicle, at least not and produce 60 cyle AC.  I was thinking to run at 15 minutes at 25% torque and 2560 rpm initially and then vary it up and down one step and likewise vary the torque by 25% steps to 50% and 75%, besides 25%, so that I don't have a long time at one rpm/power while the rings are seating.  Is this okay, or should I use some other power setting(s) for initial break-in?  My thought was to NOT use max available power until I had ten hours on the engine and then to add in 15 minutes at 100% every sixth run of 15 minutes. Adter I have 10 hours on the engine, I was thinking to go to a 30 minute interval until I got to 30 hours and changed the oil and checked the filter for metal shavings and/or pieces of bearings.

After 30 hours, I was thinking to go to one hour intervals of varying load/speed, until I got to 60 hours SOH and then changed to detergent oil and "normal" operation with the transmission in 4th and thus the engine turning at 1800 rpm, unless I needed more than 20kW, and then to change to 3rd gear and 2560 rpm, where 24 kW, which is all I can get from the generator, is about 90% of what is available from the engine.

  In as much as I have to stop the engine to change the gear setting, since there is no actual clutch, just the torque absorbtion springs that are normally in a clutch set-up, I will check the oil level at each stop to change "gears" and make sure that I don't run out of oil!

  Anything else I should or shouldn't do to break in the engine after overhaul?

  All contributions are greatly appreciated since it has been at least twenty-five years since I worried about breaking in anything that didn't have turbine blades!

Thanx for reading,

Regardz,

Wayne Stayton
 

[BioHazard]

Well, I'm no expert, but I wouldn't use a straight mineral oil in anything. Not with all the other choices we have today. The biggest issue I believe is the EPA messing with the oil, taking out things like zinc. On anything more expensive than a lawnmower, I would use "break in" oil. I guess it's just a matter of how much you want to spend. You'll especially want to stick with diesel rated oils, I think that would be much better for break in.

[WStayton]

BioHazard:

  Now I'm MORE confused - I thought that straight mineral oil WAS break-in oil?  No?

  Is there some oil marketed as a break-in oil, only?

  ?

Regardz,

Wayne Stayton

[cognos]

Regular oil spec'd for diesel use will be fine. For the initial break-in period, use whatever is cheap, since you will be changing it often. Switch to a name-brand after break in. Go to a synthetic if you believe you need the extra protection due to severe service, lots of starting and stopping, long full-load runs, extended runs, etc., or if your wallet is too fat and needs cleaning out.

In the past, there were problems with using a synthetic as a first crankcase fill in a new engine, the additives in the syn would not allow the new engine to "break in." That is not necessarily true now for many engines and most synthetic oils. But you should defer to your engine manual on spec'd oil.

Trust me (or not... ), hardly anyone really "needs" an oil as good as a modern synthetic, if even a modicum of care and respect is provided to the engine. But they are the best oils ever made. They are used in car engines by manufacturers that provide the so-called "free" maintenance packages for their new cars, like Volks and BMW, to name a couple. These manufacturers are using the oil as an insurance policy against end user neglect and abuse of the engine. You wouldn't abuse or neglect your engines, would you?

[WStayton]

cognos:

  You said:  " But you should defer to your engine manual on spec'd oil."

  The manual that came with the engine, by Nanni, the French Company who made the marinzation, says" Summer:  HD SAE 30, Winter:  Hd SAE 10W, both to be AGIP F1 Diesel Gamma or approved equivalent"  I have never heard of "AGIP FI Diesel Gamma" so I assume that it is a European designation.  I assumed that if I used a good diesel rated US oil I would be covered and since almost all of my use will be with already hot, cooling water, I figured that SAE 30 Diesel oil, following break-in, would be okay.

  The overhaul manual that I have for the engine is one printed by Haynes and similarly doen't list any spec's for oil, however, it was copyrighted in 1985, so its information is, I should think, similarly dated.

  I was thinking to use straight, non-mineral, non-additive oil for the three initial break-in periods precisely because of the problem that you speak of in that rings didn't seat when engines were run-in on detergent oils.  I was unaware that this problem had been addressed, but I am still inclined to use straight, non-additive oil for the initial break-in periods which total 60 hours all together.

  The Mercedes recommended distance between oil changes, per the overhaul manual, is 5,000 miles, which, for a stationary engine, would equate to 100 hours.  I was thinking to change it to half of this recommendation due to problems with "junk" from the WVO that I expect to use after the engine is broken in - on that theory that oil is cheap compared to an engine overhaul!

  I had thought that the big benefit of a synthetic oil was that they lasted much longer than conventional oil, and if I was going to change the oil more often than recommended because of possible oil contamination I was just wasting the money to buy synthetic AND then change it at the 50 hour interval because of possible contamination.  Not being fond of pouring money into rat holes, it seemed to a reasonable plan to just use a premium conventional diesel oil!!!

  As for the " You wouldn't abuse or neglect your engines . . ." thing, I wouldn't intentionally abuse the engine but sometimes you do things you don't intend to do, like the time I almost killed the dog because I fed him a half a pound box of chocolate candies because he liked them so much - he almost died because of the dogs-and-chocolate thing that I didn't know about!!!  <frown>  I think that it is called "unintended consequences" !!! <grin>

  Thanx for the input - it is appreciated!

Regardz,

Wayne Stayton

[mobile_bob]

me?   i would just fill it up with delo 15/40 series 3 oil and call it a day.

every diesel i have ever seen over the last 37 years used the same oil it was to continue life with from the very start.

of more importance is getting the engine  up to temperature as quickly as possible, under a varying load, and if possible
vary the rpm while monitoring the crankcase pressure.

the way the engine is broken in is far more important than the kind of oil you are going to use.

having said that, with the advent of low emissions oils, perhaps an antiwear additive from GM added to the crankcase might
be beneficial during breakin, probably would be helpful with the cam and lifter interface.

bob g

[Henry W]

I agree with you Bob.

Todays low emmision diesel oil has been almost stripped with anti wear additives for low emmision diesel engines. You bet I will be visiting the GM dealer to pick up some additive before I do the first startup.

About three months ago the Kubota application engineer also mentioned how important it is to get a load on it right away to seat the rings. So there you have it. Bob and Kubota mentioned to put a load on the engine and that is good enough for me.


Henry

[cognos]

It's not the detergent in the oil that causes the engines not to "break in." It was a problem with certain additives known as "slickeners" and friction modifiers, and some "wedge stabilisers" that keep the oil in contact with surfaces. So-called synthetic oils use differently-formulated additives than conventional oil, and "take" additives differently than conventional oil. These processes are quite well understood now.

Modern oil has not had it's lubricity "stripped" out of it in any way. It's the same oil it was in the past. It certainly contains less sulphur than it did, that's a good thing for acid/corrosion mitigation. It's chemical make-up is more consistent from batch to batch than it was in the past.
It is true that some of the additives used in the past have been eliminated, or their concentration decreased - but if that changed the performance in any way, other additives have been developed to take their place, and today's modern oils, synthetic or not, are more stable, last longer, protect better, and in general, perform better than the oils of the past, simply because we understand the tech better.

AGIP is an Italian oil company. The F1 Diesel Gamma sounds like a brand they sell - or sold at one time. The key is to use oil designated for diesel use. Then stick to the viscosity spec'd for the service the engine will see.

[Henry W]

Then what is all the talk about cams and flat tappet lifters wearing out with todays oils? If you do a google search there are endless posts about this. Here is just one. http://www.ttalk.info/Zddp.htm

What has replaced ZDDP?

Henry

[WStayton]

Hi, Guys!

  You have brought one thing to the fore that I would have glossed over - left to my own devices, I would not have used a high power setting until I had at least five hours on the engine - it sounds like I should use a high power setting as soon as I can get the engine warm which, since the coolant will be pre-warmed, should be almost immediately.

  One thing that does still worry me, though is the fact that I can only use three rpm with the transmission setup that I have.  Since the rpm control will be from a Generac unit that senses line voltage, it will only give me what ever rpm is 60 Hz in whatever gear I have engaged.

  The Mercedes transsmision that I am using will give me the following rpm at 60 Hz:

   4th gear - 1800 rpm
   3rd gear -  2610 rpm
   2nd gear -  4122 rpm

  In each gear, I believe that the engine will be able to produce the  following power output:

  4th gear - 24.54 kW
  3rd gear - 36.05 kW
  2nd gear - 51.69 kW

  FWIW, peak torque is 101 ft lbs at 2400 rpm.

  But since I will be using a 24 kW ST generator-head, I believe that it will only absorb 110% of 24 kW as a transient load for a short time, so I can only absorb a maximum of 26.4 kW for a short time.

  I think that I should operate mainly in forth gear for break-in, since this would let me operate at 100% of available power. While in third gear the best I can do is 66%, on a continuous duty basis, and 2nd is even worse, since in 2nd I can only achieve 46% before I run out of generator.

  So, if I operate at various loads between 50% and 100% in fourth for 75% of the time and then did 12.5% of the time at max power absorbable, of 66% in 3rd gear and 46% in fourth gear, will that be adequate to break in the engine and seat the rings so that I don't have a continuing problem with oil consumption?

  Maybe I should tell you a little story here - When I worked at Ford, early in my career, they were in the process of developing the 6.9 liter IH diesel engine that later morphed into the 7.3 liter - both of these being preinjection engines, not direct injection as they used in later engines.  Anyhow, the early, experimental 6.9 liter engines were made on a line that was already in the business of making engines for IH, they just ran off a batch of blocks and heads as they needed them for experimental engines - meanwhile building a whole new plant that was to be used to produce the 6.9 liter engine when it went into production.

  The early engines, produced on the IH line, all performed normally with regard to engine break-in and subsequent oil consumption.  When the new engine assembly line was finshed, shortly before the 6.9 went into production, they produced a run of 1,000 engines on the new line just to make sure that everything was working.  The engines produced were placed in service in several fleets with which Ford had an arrangement to use experimental engines to gain experience on them and they all, uniformly, didn't seat the rings, even though nothing was changed, so far as anybody could tell, from the experimental engines made on IH's casting and assembly lines.  The was a general panic and they tried everything imiginable to solve the problem since they couldn't very well release an engine in which the rings didn't seat properly and the oil consumption remained very high.  Finally, as a last resort, they called in the retired chief engineer of Curtiss Wright who had a lot of experience in solving various engine problems over the years, as a consultant.  He looked at the chemistry of the cast iron that they were using to cast the blocks, which was, for all intents and purposes, identical in both cases, though the IH cast iron was made up of a mix of approximately 40% scrap and the rest was virgin pig-iron, while the new Ford plant was using 100% virgin pig-iron.  The retired Curtiss Wright chief poked his finger at the page that listed the contents of the two different batches of cast iron - which were essentially identical, and said "There's your problem - change the mix to at least 30% scrap iron and your problem will be solved!"  Everybody thought, to a man, that he was completely bonkers and had finally lost it - he was about 75 at this time, but they did change the mix and, lo and behold, the problem was solved!  With a mix of 30% scrap and 70% virgin cast-iron, the engines broke in normally and the oil consumption was normal.  Moral of the story:  Sometimes very little things make a very big differance!!!

  So, I am concerned about not being able to use high power settings at high rpm to break-in the engine since, in a vehicle, that IS what you would do!

  I don't really see any solution to this "problem", if in fact it is a problem except to maybe borrow a larger generator for break-in if it was thought to really be a problem.

  So, am I making a mountain out of a mole hill - AGAIN? <grin>

What do you think, guys?

Regardz,

Wayne Stayton

[mobile_bob]

see  if you can find the crankcase max pressure spec from the oem of the engine,

then with a manometer monitor the crankcase pressure and apply about 1/4 load until the engine warms up

advance the load until you see a rise in crankcase pressure, run the engine at that load until the crankcase pressure starts
to decline, then add a bit more load to get the crankcase pressure back up a bit, run there till it starts to drop,

wash rinse and repeat till you get to full rated load

at any time if the pressure rises, just reduce the load a bit and run till it starts to drop off.

that will get the rings to seat in a very short time

doing this at varying rpms will also help,

i know i have written this procedure in depth both on this forum and our sister forum (LEF) before, and hate to have to retype the whole thing
over again.

i used this method on my s195 changfa and it was fully broken in by 5 hours or run time, it would have been much shorter had i went into the engine and bead honed the cylinder liner to get the finish i like to work with.   normally this engine type is said to take 50 hours to fully break in
which i think is absurd, but probably the reality if one doesn't properly warm up and load the engine so it can break in properly.

a rebuilt s195 with a proper cylinder finish could easily be broken in, in less than an hour under controlled conditions. 

one of the best descriptions of this process is outlined in old mack diesel engine service manuals, they describe the process so that it can be easily understood and applied by anyone that takes the time to do it right.

some engine's could for all practical purposes be ruined by improper breakin procedures, detroits 2 stroke engine's being a prime example
let one sit around idling for  minutes and it will forever more use oil, leak oil, blow oil, and be a real mess.  from factory training it is stated that if you cannot be assured that the detroit engine can be started, brought to operating temperatures and placed under a significant load within 20
minutes of startup,, you are not to start it!

build them  to spec,  clean enough to eat out of,  get them up to proper operating temperature and under load, and you will dramatically increase
the likelihood of a good engine.

build em sloppy, dirty, start them and let em run cold with no load... and see how long it takes to break in!  er break down!

bob g

[cognos]

hwew - in both my posts, I made reference to oils designed for diesel use. They still contain the zinc. And some other good stuff not in oil designed for use in gas engines with modern cats. Since we were talking about a diesel engine in the original post.

I am aware of some very specific problems being reported for non-modern engines - gas and diesel - with today's modern-formulation oils. They are rare, and may require specialized solutions with additives.

Major lube oil companies can't care about the antique market - it's too small to be profitable. Yer on yer own. But it pays to have a good understanding of what one is attempting to accomplish, and what sort of oil/additive package will allow you to accomplish that... 

[cognos]

 I was thinking to use straight, non-mineral, non-additive oil for the three initial break-in periods precisely because of the problem that you speak of in that rings didn't seat when engines were run-in on detergent oils.  I was unaware that this problem had been addressed, but I am still inclined to use straight, non-additive oil for the initial break-in periods which total 60 hours all together.

 

I don't know where you can actually purchase "straight, non-mineral, non-additive oil"... I think you mean non-detergent non-"synthetic" oil (which is still made from "mineral" - or crude - oil).

Even for break-in, if your engine has a pressure oil filtration system, use a detergent oil. If all it has is a trash filter, use a non-detergent oil. Both oils have many other additives in them. One just doesn't include a detergent... and a couple of other additives that go along with that. But reg. and ND oils still contain plenty of additives - friction modifiers, corrosion inhibitors, slickeners, viscosity stabilisers, etc... - tough to find an "additive-free" lubricating oil. Maybe at a pharmacy, look for "Mineral Oil," this would be a "pure," "food-grade" mineral oil without industrial additives. Don't know if this will do your engine much good, though...  unless you plan on massaging it in...

[deeiche]

rm /

[mobile_bob]

aircraft oils are meant for aircooled high output engine's that also have an expected oil consumption of so much per hour.

i wouldn't use them as break in oil for a lister/oid or changfa type engine's let alone more modern water cooled designs.

just stick with a good quality diesel series 3 oil, 15/40 is what i would use, but straight weight is also fine if you can get it.

my bet is 999 out of 1000 engine's that have break in problems are attributed to things other than the use of a good quality standard oil.

and the 1 out of the 1000 that has issues related to oil, probably has other factors that made the oil look like the culprit.

all these break in oils, and procedures came at a time, from mass production lines, where they didn't have the time to break them in
under load and had to depend on grandma to do the job,,, under those conditions special break in oils were probably needed.

the upside for folks like us with generators as loads, we "can" do what the boys do on the dyno, and what the oem's don't take the time to
do at the factory.



bob g