Type of Oil After Engine Overhaul

[playdiesel]

my bet is 999 out of 1000 engine's that have break in problems are attributed to things other than the use of a good quality standard oil.

and the 1 out of the 1000 that has issues related to oil, probably has other factors that made the oil look like the culprit.


bob g

X2 That is my opinion of break in oils exactly but old wives tails and urban legend combine to sell a lot products.

[deeiche]

rm /

[mobile_bob]

that 320cu/in engine in an airplane likely puts out most of its rated 150hp for a large percentage of the time it is in use, now
take the same engine and put it in grandma's car and let her plug around town and the percentage or rated power will be very small indeed.

it took me quite a while to understand a few simple facts when it comes to engine's and their applications

for instance a 350cu/in chevy can be built to make 300hp fairly inexpensively,  and it will make your car scoot along pretty good indeed.

on the other hand the same engine built to make 300hp for a boat application will cost twice or more in parts, things like forged pistons
higher quality brgs, etc become mandatory.

why the difference in cost? they are both 350 cu/in engine's, and both will dyno out at 350hp right?

the difference is one is 350hp intermittent duty the other is 350hp continuous duty, big difference.

so yes even though your airplane engine is 320cu/in and produces only 150hp, i would still classify it as a high output engine, if not in hp
capability then in its ability to deliver 150hp continuously and reliably,  the latter likely the most important.

damn few cars on the road today use 150hp to cruise down the hiway is my bet, certainly not around town getting groceries.

bob g

[Henry W]

cognos,

With all due respect I am not here to argue. I just want to get the facts and I feel you are the person to help us understand what would be best to run in non-modern engines. I understand lots of modern diesel engines have switched to roller lifters and roller rocker-arms and modern oils are fine for these. But what about engines with flat tappet cams? There are still many new diesel engines made with flat tappet cams. So what I am looking for is a solution (lets call it insurance) to protect cam, lifter, rocker-arms and ect. from accelerated wear.

I ran Amsoil 30/10-30 oil for over 2,000 hours  in my air cooled Kawasaki engines. I checked valve clearence every 300 hours and never had to adjust valve clearance. Last fall I changed to Mobile 1 10-30 oil and under 100 hours of run time I noticed that the valve train was noisey so I checked valve clearance and the rocker ends were out of spec. I also noticed the valve ends cupped the rocker ends. I under stand I should pull the rocker arms off and have them reground or replaced but this is my busy season so it won't get done until winter. Anyways I adjusted the valves put back in Amsoil 30/10-30 oil and so far 250 hours later I have no valve train noise. In another 50 hours the valve covers will be removed and valve clearance will be checked. My question is why does it seem to protect the valve train better than a top rated oil?

This is the oil I am running in my air cooled engines. http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/ase.aspx

Also here is a page in PDF from my Kubota shop manual. It shows the recommendations from Kubota.

This is the oil I ran in my Kubota B7500 tractor with the D1005 diesel engine. http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/acd.aspx

I guess what I am looking for is an oil that will protect older gas and diesel engines.
What I am curantly using is probably fine but at times I can't get it and it is expensive. It might be good to run a decent oil for modern engines with an additive that will not make an oil unstable. This could be a problem. Any time additives are mixed with oils I believe there is a risk. I know some additives will cause problems like making the oil foam up. I seen Lucas additives do this and will not put it in any of my equipment.

Thanks,

Henry

[deeiche]

that 320cu/in engine in an airplane likely puts out most of its rated 150hp for a large percentage of the time it is in use, now
take the same engine and put it in grandma's car and let her plug around town and the percentage or rated power will be very small indeed.
SNIP

I stand corrected, guess I don't know anything about aircraft engines

[cognos]

hwew - I'm not here to argue, either, and in no way did I take anything you said to be argumentative!

I certainly don't know everything,I'm here to learn, and I'm everywhere else to learn, too.

I don't have a solution to any particular lubrication problem related to a particular engine or part. In my world, it's all "broad strokes," stuff, for the widest acceptability to the widest customer group. Think "Big Oil, Big Car Company, Big Defence Industry, Big Money."

There are general practices that work across the board. Great, but lately, due to environmmental concerns related to things in oils and fuels, there have been massive changes in oil tech and engine tech - more than in the previous half-century. Some old metallurgy and techniques used in some of those engines may well be left out of these tech advances - and suffer for it. But it may be some time before anyone can say what will suffer, why, and if in fact there will be a solution. I foresee a future where it will not be legal to produce or sell an oil or an additve that would cause a failure of any part of the EPA test cycle for tailpipe emissions.

Modern formula oils have to be certified by some sort of engineering standards group, like SAE, they put forward tests the oil has to pass in order to be certified - modern oils pass those tests - and the old tests - better than any oil of the past. That doesn't mean much to your old engine, since the tests are often only loosely related to real life.

I can only say that if your engine is suffering failures, and this can be traced back to something different about the oil being used, well, try to find out from the manufacturer what's changed, and if they can suggest an additive to make up for the loss... not likely to be too successful here, since most additive packages are proprietary, and no one wants anyone to know exactly what is in theirs...

Just be careful of claims. They don't call us "snake oil salesmen" for nothing. There's a lot of BS about aftermarket additives and wonder oils.

[Henry W]

Hi Cognos,

You are right, There's a lot of BS about aftermarket additives and wonder oils.

Thanks,

Henry

[admin]

deeiche:

it was not my intent to make out like you new nothing about aircraft engine's, far from it actually.

first of all i had no idea you had an aircraft, were a pilot or anything of the sort

second my intention was to illustrate the differences between our engine's and an aircraft engine, as it pertains to break in procedures
and oils used.

my comments were not directed at you or anyone specifically,  rather it was my attempt at relating how i came to the belief system i have
today.  there was a time long ago that i bought into the need for break in oils for everything, or assumed they were needed for everything
when the reality is quite different, at least in my experience.

so if i offended you in any way, it was certainly not intentional.

bob g

[Tom Reed]

Man oh man Bob, You've gotten to nice since the promotion. 

[WStayton]

Hi, Guys!

  Let me show my ignorance here for a minute . . .

  Back in the "good old days" before manufacturers were able to repeatably bore and hone a cylinder bore and a piston such that it was 1) Of the right size/fit so that thermal growth of running made the piston to bore spacing appropriate for the metals used (iron for block and aluminum for piston) 2) Of  the right finish such that it retained a small amount of oil for lubrication but not so rough that it held a lot of oil, and hence, created an "oil burner", the general practice was to make the initial fill of oil a "straight" mineral oil that had nothing in it to modify the wear characteristics of the surfaces being lubricated.  Note:  This practice depended on both surfaces being appropriately "rough" so that they got honed evenly by the initial running of the engine - New pistons in a used bore, without honing the bore to slightly roughen it up, resulted in an oil burner everytime - hence one of the time honored "tricks" of mixing a can of Bon-Ami, or some such similar scouring powder, into a quart of water and slowly, with the oil-burning engine running, trickle it into the engine intake in order to achieve a proper finish on the piston and bore to reduce oil consumption.  Note:  I haven't seen this procedure used in about thirty years, which, more or less, corresponds to the onset of better engine manufacturing standards.

  As machining became better and more repeatable, manufacturers were able to sort pistons into "sizes" that were in 0.00005 inch increments and then measure the bored/honed blocks to the same standards and thus have an exact fit of the piston to the bore, without the monkey motion of using a special lube to allow the parts to "wear to size", and the practice of using an initial fill of special non-detergent oil was done away with.

  In my case, I will be overhauling the engine in my "back room" and will have exactly ONE block and four pistons to pick from, so I think my chances of getting the exact fit needed to have a very minimum "break-in" period, with subsequent acceptable oil consumption, approach zero.  From this, I concluded that I would have to do things the old fashioned way and start with a non-detergent oil, so that everything could wear into place and not develop a final finsh on the parts before the surfaces were sufficiently worn in to have a reasonable long term oil consumption.  If I do, by some miracle, achieve the perfect fit of piston to bore, and still use the non-detergent/non-additive oil, I don't believe that I will injure anything, rather I will just have worn off a few thousand hours of piston and cyliunder in a few hours, with no other, long-term, effect.

  As to the availability of "non-detergent" oils, I checked three auto parts shops around town and all three of them, after asking me why I wanted non-detergent oil, went in the back and returned with a case of it, so it is available.  It did look dusty, though, as if it had set on the shelf for quite a while.  I conclude from talking to the salesmen, the dust on the box, and the fact that it wasn't on display, that this is not a big mover for any of them! <grin>

  So, what is wrong with my plan to use a less "oily" initial oil to get everything to seat properly, rather than starting out with a high additive package that is designed to prevent this wear-in that I am trying to get???

  Note that wear-in does not occur over the whole surface at one time - it is rather like a bunch of hills and valleys and the objective is to wear off the hills before they become so smooth that they no longer have any abrasive effect - or at least that is what I think!  My fear is that, if I use a high-detergent oil from the get-go, I will create one of the old-fashioned oil-burners of forty years ago, having honed off the tops of the piston "hills", before the bore "hill" tops are similarly worn in

  So, am I sadly mis-informed, here, or will what I plan on doing, achieve the desired result?

  Thanx for your input!

Regardz,

Wayne Stayton

[cognos]

Wayne - I think you are mistaking ND oil - non-detergent oil - with straight, no additive oil. This is not the case. ND oils are common, should be available most everywhere. They are used in engines without spin-on oil filters.

ND oil has plenty of other additives - as stated, they contain all the friction modifiers, corrosion inhibitors, viscosity stabilisers, dyes, snake oil, etc. - that their detergent-containing counterparts have. They just don't have any detergent. They may actually contain an additive that makes dirt drop out of suspension quickly, into the engine sump - unlike the regular oil that contains a dispersant that holds dirt in suspension - so the oil filter can get a shot at it.

Detergent should not have anything to do with the friction coefficient of the oil. ND oils are no less "slippery" than their detergent counterparts.

I think you will not be able to get your hands on any oil that contains no additives at all. There is simply no use for them.

The old-style break-in oils had less/different additives in them than regular oil. But they still have additives.

First-fill oil used by car companies - the oil put into the crankcase of a brand-new engine at the factory - is often a specially-formulated break-in oil. But I have no idea where a person can buy that type of oil over-the-counter.

Hope this helps.

[Lloyd]

Just for the record...Chevron Delo 100 is a ND, with all the good stuff a diesel engine needs. Wayne, if you want to pay the price Marvel Mystery Oil is a mineral based oil, but it may have to much slipperiness for you.

Shell Rotetlla T-1 is also an ND Diesel formulated oil.

Or you can spend a lot of time at this site and get answers to every oil question you have, can dream up..It's called Bob the Oil Guy, here is a link to their forum http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=465814 in/re ND oil.

Lloyd

[Lloyd]

http://forum.chaparralboats.com/index.php?showtopic=13471

This is also a very good read, by a guy named "Wingnut" he spells out many a mystery. http://forum.chaparralboats.com/index.php?showtopic=13471

Lloyd

[cognos]

That post by "Wingnut" is as close as all you need to know about modern oil as is possible. There are minor technical "aberrations" in a couple of his explanations - but these are probably regional in nature, and do not affect the actual tech involved.

Bob the Oil Guy's site is full of misinformation from users who have no idea what they're talking about - mixed with actual facts from experts and sophisticated home users. And it can be tough to separate the two. Great resource, just take it with a grain of salt, and use common sense.

Just my opinion.

[billswan]

OK for who it may concern.........

Here is the john deere part number of a oil that is labeled a break in oil.  TY 26661 in 1 gallon jug priced
at  about $19.80 per gallon. Five gallon pail TY 26663 priced at about $95.00.

This oil is what is in john deere tractors that come new from the factory, and it is a 10-30 multigrade oil.

Even though john deere to the best of my knowledge breaks in these engines on a dyno this oil comes in these tractors and it must be used for at least the first oil change and farmers that drained it way to soon and installed extended drain interval oils had trouble with oil consumption.

Billswan

OK here is some more info off JD web site
Break-in Plus, Special Purpose Engine Oil



Break-in Plus is a special purpose engine oil developed to be used in rebuilt or remanufactured engines and new John Deere engines during the initial break-in period.

This next generation oil is formulated to provide a controlled environment for piston rings and cylinder liners to establish a good surface mating for maximum performance and long engine life. At the same time, Break-In Plus provides the necessary wear protection for valve train and gears.


Application

Break-In Plus is designed to be used in rebuilt or remanufactured engines and new John Deere engines for the initial oil service interval. Operate the engine under various conditions, particularly heavy loads with minimal idling, to help seat engine components properly.
   



Break-In Plus delivers performance and protection for an initial service interval equal to that of our premium Plus-50 II. During the initial operation of a new or remanufactured engine with Break-In Plus, change the oil and filter between a minimum of 100 hours and a maximum of up to 500 hours. The 100 hour minimum applies to all new or remanufactured engines, regardless of Tier.  The maximum service interval is the same as the service interval recommendations for Plus-50 and/or Plus-50 II, up to 500 hours. Check your operator manual for the maximum interval recommendation.


Features and Benefits

·        Contains special additives to control piston ring and liner seating without scuffing

·        These additives allow rings and liners to seat while protecting valve train and gears from wear

·        Piston rings and liners establish a good wear pattern for maximum performance and extended engine life


Break-In Plus provides two major differences from traditional Break-In oil

·        Meets the oil requirements for Interim Tier 4 (IT4) engines and supports all legacy engines

·        Service drain interval up to 500 hours (1)



John Deere Break-In Plus Engine Oil can be used for all John Deere diesel engines at all emission certification levels.



(1) Always follow Operator Manual


Initial Service Intervals

The initial break-in service interval of a new or remanufactured wet sleeve engine with Break-In Plus must go at least 100 hours to assure the surface mating of the rings and liners has had an opportunity to occur. The 100 hour minimum applies to all new or remanufactured wet-sleeve John Deere diesel engines, regardless of Tier certification level.

The maximum initial oil service interval when using Break-In Plus is the same as the service interval recommendations for Plus-50 II.

This table indicates both the minimum and maximum recommended initial intervals when using Break-In Plus, Break-In, or a blend of the two:





(1) Specific to John Deere diesel engines using John Deere filters, using Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD) at 15 ppm or less Sulfur content, and the engine is operating within the original factory specifications affecting rated power output, including engine control units (ECUs) and fuel delivery systems.

(2) Consult with the Operators Manual for break in procedures when involving a non John Deere engine.

(3) The engine must be using Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD) at 15 ppm or lower Sulfur content.



Change the oil and oil filter at least once every 12 months even if the hours of operation are fewer than the otherwise recommended service interval.


Chemical and physical properties

Property
   

Units
   

ASTM method
   

Break-in
   



10W-30
   



Viscosity
   

mm2/s (cSt)
   

D 445
   


   



    @ 40oC
   


   


   

64.02
   



    @ 100oC
   


   


   

9.71
   



Viscosity index
   

-
   

D 2270
   

134
   



Pour point
   

oC
   

D 97
   

-42
   



Flash point
   

oC
   

D 92
   

210
   



Total base number
   

mgKOH/g
   

D 2896
   

10.5
   



Sulfated ash
   

mass%
   

D 874
   

1.0
   



HTHS, @ 150oC
   

cP
   

D 4624
   

3.12
   




Break-In Plus Q & A

Q    Break-In Plus Oil – What is the recommendation for top off, specifically, in areas (regions) where Break-In Plus is not offered?

Break-In Plus will be required in our wet sleeve IT4 engines for emission compliance. Either Break-In or Break-In Plus oil can be used in our non- IT4 wet sleeve diesel engines.

If an IT4 engine is delivered into a region yet to be supported by our Break-In Plus, the end customer should keep the factory fill Break-In Plus in service for at least 100 hours. If the oil consumption or loss dictates additional make up volume, options are limited to API CJ-4 (ACEA E-9) oil to remain in compliance with emission levels. 10W-30 is the recommended weight through the break in period.



Q    When is Break-In Plus available?

Break-In Plus is already available in Canada and the United States. Roll out to other regions will be announced as product is staged for release in those areas.



Q    What machines is Break-In Plus being put into?

Break-In Plus is an aftermarket product at this time. It is available at factories for fill of IT4 engines being installed into pre-production units as required and it will be used on all assembly lines that adopt wet sleeve IT4 engines equipped with DPF devices moving forward.



Q    What is the factory fill for the 2.4 and 3.0 liter cast block and sleeve engines, and what is the initial service recommendation?  Did it change?

These engines currently use Plus-50 10W-30 as their factory fill. The initial service interval remains unchanged at 500 hours. Any changes to either of these details will be communicated.



Q    Is it a requirement to go a full 500 hour break-in period when using Break-In Plus?

No.  Surface mating is expected to be achieved after 100 hours of operating the engine under various conditions, particularly heavy loads with minimal idling. The engine oil may be switched to the intended service oil, preferably Plus-50 II, anytime after the initial 100 hours has been reached, and up to the maximum recommended oil service interval per the Operators Manual.



Q    Can a customer top-off with Plus 50 II in the break-in period?

After the initial 100 hours with Break-In Plus, the customer may top-up with Plus 50™ II.



Q    What if the customer runs Break-In Plus for 100 hours and goes to Plus 50 II?

This is acceptable. When break-in procedures are followed to operate the engine under various conditions, particularly heavy loads with minimal idling, to help seat engine components properly, it should effectively occur by 100 operating hours. Once this has occurred, the operator may continue topping off and servicing the engine with Break-In Plus through the initial oil service interval. Alternately, as the rings and liners have now aligned mating surfaces, the operator may move forward to use the preferred service fluid, Plus-50 II.



Q    Is Break-In Plus 15W-40 or 10W-30?

Break-In and Break-In Plus are in the 10W-30 family bracket.



Q    Why can John Deere engines now experience a 500 hour break-in service interval?

The same technology and performance advancements we are using in the development of Plus-50 II have been applied to John Deere Break-In Plus. This, combined with the noted Sulfur level reduction in diesel fuel supports our offering of this opportunity.