Solar panels/electrical code?

[BioHazard]

I'm looking into getting a small solar panel setup mainly so I can get the power company to install a bidirectional meter on my house. All the info on the power company's website is geared towards qualifying for state and federal tax incentives. Everything talks about how you need to hire a "licensed solar contractor" to install your system and qualify for this or that. Also, all components must be new and UL approved.

I say that's a load of BS. I want to install my own solar system. I don't care about the tax incentives, although nice, the only reason I'm doing this is so that I can qualify for a net metering agreement with the power company. I don't want any "licensed solar contractor" touching my system.

Is it somehow against the National Electric Code for a person to install their own grid tied solar system on their own home? At what point exactly do electrical codes take effect? I mean, I could install a 24v panel without a permit, but probably not a 200v string of panels. Is there a certain voltage limit? The PoCo says they want to do a final inspection before installing another meter, which is fine, what does it matter who installed it if it passes?

Is it "legal" for me to simply buy a cheap 12v solar panel on ebay and a tiny grid tie inverter, and plug it in without even asking the power company?

[Carlb]

I live in New Jersey and I have installed 3 solar arrays at our home for a total of 22.1kw. I did it in three stages (too expensive to do all at once).  I had to pull permits from the county for the installations and the local electrical and construction inspectors had to inspect and approve all equipment and wiring but, I, as the homeowner was allowed to do the install.

All three of my systems run between 300 to 500 vdc and all are grid tied for 220 vac.

You should not have to have new equipment or have it installed by a licensed professional if you are not trying to qualify for either state or federal rebates.

In New Jersey when I did my installs we were not required to have the equipment installed by a licensed installer to qualify for state incentives but we did have to install new equipment.

Carl 

[LowGear]

You lucky dogs that live in a state or county where the people are allowed to do plumbing (Yup - Plumbing for Gosh Sakes) and electrical work.  Here in Hawaii they do not have owner permits for plumbing (Yup - Plumbing for Gosh Sakes) or electrical work.  So if you want to do the work yourself you find a licensed contractor that will pull the permits and call in the inspections.  Then if the inspector finds out that you've been doing stuff like digging the ditch that the conduit is laid in all Hell breaks loose and the process becomes chickenus shitus.  It only took five inspections to get the system through.  OK!  It is no surprise to many of you that I don't know too much about black wires and white wires and conduit straps.  This jerk actually acted like he was angry.

In Hawaii the installation must be permitted or the Hawaiian Electric Company (HELCO) will not approve your application for grid tie.  While NEC is the byword most agencies have their little twists and turns but all in all its fundamentally NEC.  If you're going to this much expense in materials why not get the tax credits and you can actually convert them into cash at both the federal level and in the State of Hawaii.  Of course you need a licensed EE to do the plans so they can be submitted with your permit.  HELCO (The Company From Hell) does have a list of "qualified installers for the solar water heaters (Yup - Plumbing for Gosh Sakes) but accepts just everyday State Licensed Electricians.  I've decided not to come back as Jesus or Moses but rather a license electrical contractor in Hawaii.  Incidentally HELCO was pretty easy to work with once I was fully conditioned by the county electrical inspector.  I'm thinking about making a lapel button that reads "Ask my about Electrical Inspectors".

Check with your local permitting agency and electrical utility for the real rules.  I used the telephone.  Its a really neat thingie out of the last millennium which allows you to talk to real people about what the real procedure is.   As for "I don't want any "licensed solar contractor" touching my system." you can find some grouchy old fart or hungry young one that will do as you direct.  We are not alone my brother.

Casey

[mike90045]

Different states have different requirements, in Calif, a homeowner can do it all, as long as it passes code and the inspection. 

Some rebates require a licensed installer to qualify for the rebate.

[bschwartz]

   "Some rebates require a licensed installer to qualify for the rebate."

This PISSES me off to no end!!  I can install a 3KW system for $8,500 myself, but to qualify for a 30% tax credit (which I only get back if I owe taxes) I have to hire a contractor to install if for me at a cost of $22,000!!!  WHAT?!?!?!  They aren't incentives for solar, they are incentives for contractors!

Don't get me started...... uh, too late.

[LowGear]

Yes bschwartz!

But self employed folks don't count on the big picture.  The cost of a licensed or anointed installer pushes many hot water solar packages out of the market here in Hawaii. 

Now get out there on a job that figures into the government statistics and work your butt off as a chump so you can pay some body elses statistically empowered chumps to do the work.  Most do really nice work but once you factor in the "No Careus" factor you're often better off with your own work.  But my suggestion reduced the unemployment numbers down by at least two if not four.

Frustration is a contagious disease.

Casey

[BioHazard]

   "Some rebates require a licensed installer to qualify for the rebate."

This PISSES me off to no end!!  I can install a 3KW system for $8,500 myself, but to qualify for a 30% tax credit (which I only get back if I owe taxes) I have to hire a contractor to install if for me at a cost of $22,000!!!  WHAT?!?!?!  They aren't incentives for solar, they are incentives for contractors!

Don't get me started...... uh, too late.

That's exactly my problem. With tax incentives, I could install a multi-kilowatt system nearly for free...if I didn't have to overpay someone to do it for me. 

What I want to know, is at what point does the NEC take over? I can install a 12v battery based system myself without asking anybody. I can see how a 500+ volt system might require an electrician. How high can I go? The power inverter that sends out 120v doesn't actually have to be "wired", it just plugs in like any other appliance...I don't see how they can require an electrician for that. It might be different if I was using an inverter big enough to require it's own circuit...

I'm just going for something small, almost worthless at this point. Like you might install on top of an RV. I just need an excuse in case I accidently let some watts back into the grid!

They do however have a new program where the power company buys all your solar power at $0.46/KWH, in lieu of state tax incentives. I still have to pencil out the details of that program, but again, the "solar contractor" is what makes it undoable...

[bschwartz]

The.NEC is just the standards.  I believe that it applies to low voltage as well.  there may be a threshold voltage at which an electrician it required in your area.  I know among other things, the NEC lists wire sizes, and even wire color standards for AC and DC.

[DanG]

It comes down to taxes - the final permits are cc'd to the property tax assessors offices, everyone approved to work on the projects exist on the tax roles, all the associated Unions get their 2¢ worth and the Insurance companies tweak rates, and on and on ad infintum. They just figured out another way to tax sunshine.

[LowGear]

I can install a 12v battery based system myself without asking anybody.

I'm thinking this is an inappropriate assumption.  In many jurisdictions a "licensed installer" is required for phone lines, TV cables and computer data cables.  And If I knew code I could tell you when they could and could not share conduit and boxes.  I'm sure lighten rods and other roof top collectors fall well withing these parameters.

The plan and permit required that every single piece of metal be individually grounded via the single, no splices, copper grounding wire.  15 panel surrounds, 6 aluminum mounting struts and 5 aluminum sub-assembly "L" brackets were individually grounding lugged together.  Do I need to mention they were all touching each other and bolted to each other. 

Casey

[BioHazard]

Hmmm...it sounds like things are a bit more strict in Hawaii. I don't think it is necessary to get a permit here in OR for things like cable and phone...at least I never have.  

There's got to be a place where the NEC stops though. For example, an RV - you can wire that however you like without an inspection or a permit. Right? Is it the grid tie that brings the NEC into the picture? (like I said, I only want a small inverter that simply plugs into a wall outlet) For example, home improvement stores sell 12v "yard lights" so that people can DIY, where they couldn't with 120v. I'm definately not planning a high voltage system, probably around 24-48v max.

Let's say my house is off grid entirely. Am I still supposed to get electrical permits if I'm not using the services of the local power company?

I find it's generally best to keep a don't ask don't tell policy with the permit nazis. I'm fine with the power company sending an inspector out before the final hookup...I just think I should get the chance to do it, even if I do it wrong. I have a whole basement I dug myself nobody knows about. Shhhhhh.....

[LowGear]

"Grid Tie" is what brings in the permit process here in Hawaii as it is a requirement of the electrical utility and they own the meters - the one you want.  HELCO regards the wall plug units to be out of compliance.  And I have a neighbor that just stuck five panels on the roof and hooked them up via Enphase M190 inverters which as far as I can see are just glorified Ebay units.  He doesn't think he'll ever produce more than he is making and isn't worried about being caught.  He expects to file for the tax credits at the fed and state level. 

My guidelines:
If it's over $500 - do it right.
If you're doing it - right get a permit.  (I'm almost cured on this one after my latest aversion therapy experience.)

Here's the three views of my new meter after a couple of days.  It cycles through showing the three KWH categories.  Week after next when I've finished helping our country with my tax money I'll find out why the PV value is so low when I know I'm producing around 8 KWH a day.  I'm hoping it reflects the times when I'm generating more than I'm using.

Casey

[BioHazard]

Do any of these fancy new meters save the peak power output of your solar system...or just a running total of the watts? Might have some explaining to do if they see a 3kw peak and I only have a 200 watt solar system....

If I could *ahem* "supplement" my solar system with an engine driven cogenerator I could easily generate power for less than the 46 cents/kwh they pay for it and get free heat................hmmm....................

[Carlb]

   "Some rebates require a licensed installer to qualify for the rebate."

This PISSES me off to no end!!  I can install a 3KW system for $8,500 myself, but to qualify for a 30% tax credit (which I only get back if I owe taxes) I have to hire a contractor to install if for me at a cost of $22,000!!!  WHAT?!?!?!  They aren't incentives for solar, they are incentives for contractors!

Don't get me started...... uh, too late.

Unless they changed the 30% federal tax credit in the last year and a half there was no requirement that a homeowner was not allowed to install his own system and still qualify for the tax credit.

You don't have to owe taxes for the tax credit to take effect.  if you paid taxes at all then the amount that you already paid is lessened by the tax credit and you get that money back.  If the amount of the credit is larger that what you paid in taxes that year that is not a problem it will carry over to the next year and so forth until it credit is recovered by the taxpayer.

[LowGear]

I've heard you can get cash back for your credits from Uncle.  Hawaii discounts them by about 25%.  And I also believe that you don't have to actually hook the system up to the grid but rather just show the installation costs (big "I think").   

Tax fraud is against the law and allows the IRS to go all the way back to your circumcision medical fee deduction where "Oopsies" tend to have a three year window.

These are what I understand at this time and I will refund all receipts for advice given.

Casey