Find ethanol free gas near you.

[Crofter]

Really the arguments about the relative pros and cons re. ethanol and other bio fuels is a bit like arguing the taking of vitamins while continuing to use tobacco. Energy is costly and the form we are most addicted to is a one time windfall that is about to quickly dwindle. North American energy consumption per capita is many times higher than what could reasonably be considered sustainable. Too much effort is going into desperate attempts to maintain consumerism and feed the wasteful system totally dependent on automotive travel. More local production of our needs close to the point of consumption may be a very necessary rethink. Labor intensive has been a dirty word but I think that will change as the real (unsubsidized) price of energy comes to bear.

Many equations are skewed by using arbitrary cost figures on components. Much of our food production under the current system actually uses 10 or more times fossil fuel input energy  than actual measured energy out; is that bad?

Bio fuels, ethanol and other concentrated energy forms will certainly be used in the future but we wont be burning them up to produce amusement or other non essential consumables. Certainly their production will have to be weighed against our food needs. Many things can only be enjoyed on a full stomach!

[cognos]

I will agree with much of what billswan has posted, especially that burning plant-sourced ethanol is slightly better for the environment than burning fuels made from crude oil. I also agree with most of what Crofter has said. And much of what Bio has posted!

All these points on both "sides" of the discussion are valid - to a point. Personally, I don't see it as two sides at all - just different viewpoints of the same debate. I don't believe that the absolutes can be actually known - there's too much variability in the data, let alone having it skewed politically. Costs, energy inputs, manpower, sunlight, environmental impact - they may all be too complex to completely quantify.

I don't think ethanol production is anywhere near as effficient as 167 units output per 100 input. Nor do i believe that gasoline production is -18% energy negative. Neither of those figure make sense in the real world. No oil company is in the business of losing money, and with a negative energy balance on their best-selling product, well, money would be draining at an alarming rate. And if I could get 167 units if energy out of anything per 100 units in, I would be producing every drop I could... and so would everyone else in the world that knew this "secret."

I do know this - if it was cost-effective (read: cheaper than gasoline) to burn ethanol, we'd be doing it. Everybody would be doing it. Every vehicle on the road would be optimised to burn ethanol. No consumer, oil company exec, shareholder, government regulator, politician, or wizard could stop the market from demanding it - if it were, in fact, cheaper than gas. Since this isn't happening right now, even without what passes for my "insider's take" on the subject, this alone tells me tells me it isn't yet so. There's no conspiracy, it's just too expensive, and the efficiencies aren't there yet.

This doesn't mean that it won't be true in the future - I believe that it will! At some point, fossil fuels will become far too valuable to burn in the ways we take for granted today. They'll never go completely away. But we'll slowly be forced into reliance on more expensive, plant-sourced, locally produced fuels. Some of the lessons we are learning today will be of value in the future. I don't see this as a bad thing.

(oh ya - as far as racing engines using ethanol - don't get wrapped up in the "green" hype... they're not doing it because of any concern for the environment... ethanol has been a very popular racing fuel for many years in many venues, because of it's high octane number, it allows you to up the compression ratio and get more power from a smaller, lighter engine. I used to visit the pits at CART races with my company, we were a sponsor... after every race, they would run the ethanol out of the cell and introduce (our) gasoline to "pickle" the engines - if they left the ethanol in, things would corrode...)

[LowGear]

Gosh,

I agree with cognos much of the time.  This latest argument is one I wholeheartedly agree with.  "The secret this or that which was taken away from the mad scientist....."   "It's being suppressed by the money hungriest people in the world because ......"  These scenarios have always made me laugh or choke.  If there's good money in the "thing" then it will come forward.  Never forget the wisdom of Deap Throat.  "Follow the money."

Hence:  Alcohol was displaced by petroleum because it was so cheap and easy.  Petroleum is not as cheap and easy as it once was and should expect to get slowly displaced as it's cost become similar if not more expensive than other energy systems. 

Isn't this an amazing website.  OK, It took me 2 years and 10 months to learn the difference between boot polish and the other stuff.  But there are contributors on this site that actually know what their talking about and have real personal experience to back it up.  They've done more than acted the part on daytime TV.  Some even list their sources.

Casey

[BioHazard]

It's best to think of ethanol as just another energy storage medium, like batteries, or hydrogen. It is not energy that can simply be mined and burned, it's just sunlight stored up in a form your car can use later.

Growing the corn is like charging a battery. You put in more than you get back, but, you can also put it in a box and store it for later.

And I still say, at the very least, we would be better served replacing the corn fields with oil crops and the alcohol with biodiesel. It takes much less energy to squeeze oil than distill alcohol. And it doesn't bother diesel engines nearly as much as gasoline engines.

[LowGear]

You just be preaching to the choir brother BioHazard!

But don't forget the methanol and potassium hydroxide (yes, I've heard) and some heat.  It is brought to 140 degrees just like alcohol only not as long (I think).  And there are better sugar crops than corn - our Department of Agriculture just isn't set up for them.  Bureaucratic needs will always trump logic or good sense.  They've got the deep pockets.

Casey

[BioHazard]

But don't forget the methanol and potassium hydroxide (yes, I've heard) and some heat.  

Isn't it possible to recover some of the methanol and use it again? I thought I read something about that...

Honestly, I'm still open to the idea of making my own still as I suggested many months ago. I could use low grade waste heat from a cogenerator for the distillation. And for feed stock, there is lots of rotten fruit to be had for free in the summer. But I am under no dilusion that I am "making" energy, only storing it for later...

The real beef I have with ethanol is that I'm forced by the government to burn it for fuel in my expensive and picky antique outboard motor. (as well as other antiques) There are no sources of pure gas close enough for me to use. If it was like E85 sitting on it's own pump that I don't have to go near then I couldn't care less, grow all the corn you want....save the gas for me.

[billswan]

The real beef I have with ethanol is that I'm forced by the government to burn it for fuel in my expensive and picky antique outboard motor. (as well as other antiques) There are no sources of pure gas close enough for me to use. If it was like E85 sitting on it's own pump that I don't have to go near then I couldn't care less, grow all the corn you want....save the gas for me.

Bio

you won't get any argument from me on that YOU should be able to buy as much PURE gasoline that your heart desires. And nothing pisses me off more than the government man being able to fine me if I happen to forget to wear a seat belt even though I know perfectly well it might save my cookies if there is a car crash.
Oh and having to go ask permission to put in drain tile in fields I Own.
And sorry to here that Oregon thinks you are to stupid to pump you own fuel.

Yes ethanol has it's short comings but most people involved with it acknowledge it is only a temporary stepping stone to who knows what. We all know that if the population keeps expanding with no wars plagues or other odd disasters like has been discussed coming our way from space. The farmer will have his hands full just growing food much less fuel. In the not to far off future.

I do have some more to post about the ethanol versus oil but no time now maybe to night or tomorrow.

Billswan 

[RogerAS]

Someone mentioned a country using more methanol than gas. I believe that country is Brazil and they use mainly sugar cane as a base stock. Basically they are making rum for their cars and stuff.

If Detroit or Tokyo wanted to build engines of all sizes specifically to run on the stuff they could.

R

[bschwartz]

I will PERSONALLY punch anyone in the nose who builds an engine to run on rum!!!

Now if they make one to run on vodka, I'm all for it.

[deeiche]

rm /

[mbryner]

In Oregon we have a law that says you can't pump your own gas at a station.

Awww, Bio, it's not that bad when you get used to it, not having to get out in the rain or snow.     In fact I know some girls at work who use the "I'm from Oregon, I don't know how to pump my own gas" line when they go across the border into Nor. Cal.      And gas here is still cheaper then Cal. or Wash.

[BioHazard]

Awww, Bio, it's not that bad when you get used to it, not having to get out in the rain or snow.     In fact I know some girls at work who use the "I'm from Oregon, I don't know how to pump my own gas" line when they go across the border into Nor. Cal.      And gas here is still cheaper then Cal. or Wash.

It is nice when I just need to fill up my truck and go...but it's quite the fiasco if you show up in a '67 mustang or want 10 gas cans filled. Don't try to explain to the attendent that your 18 gallon tank is properly grounded in the bed, just take it out so you can hurt yourself putting it back in. And don't even think about a locking gas cap! Yet, ride up on a motorcycle and you can fill it yourself...and diesel is completely self serve. That make sense alright. 

Then there's the issue that I can pump it myself in half the time it normally takes the crack head to do it because he's busy texting....

But gas is usually cheaper down here than over the border in WA, always found that odd...

[cgwymp]

Awww, Bio, it's not that bad when you get used to it, not having to get out in the rain or snow.     In fact I know some girls at work who use the "I'm from Oregon, I don't know how to pump my own gas" line when they go across the border into Nor. Cal.      And gas here is still cheaper then Cal. or Wash.

It is nice when I just need to fill up my truck and go...but it's quite the fiasco if you show up in a '67 mustang or want 10 gas cans filled. Don't try to explain to the attendent that your 18 gallon tank is properly grounded in the bed, just take it out so you can hurt yourself putting it back in. And don't even think about a locking gas cap! Yet, ride up on a motorcycle and you can fill it yourself...and diesel is completely self serve. That make sense alright. 

Then there's the issue that I can pump it myself in half the time it normally takes the crack head to do it because he's busy texting....

But gas is usually cheaper down here than over the border in WA, always found that odd...

Or like my experience in NJ (same deal as OR) -- pull up to the pump in my 1951 MG TD and the pump attendant fills it up for me. In the process he spills gas all over the tank and tonneau cover, doesn't even attempt to clean it up, then has the nerve to expect a tip!

[Carlb]

I too live in NJ but when i take my 69 Camaro to get gas the attendants always ask me if i want to pump my own gas and I always do.  I do however let the attendants pump the gas in my Infiniti coupe.

PS.  Some of us remember when there were no self serve gas stations. I can tell you that I pay 30 cents a gallon less for full serve gas in NJ then right over the bridge in PA and there you have to pump your own gas.

Its nice to stay in your car on those cold drizzly days or when it is just plain cold out or snowing

Carl

[XYZER]

Or like my experience in NJ (same deal as OR) -- pull up to the pump in my 1951 MG TD and the pump attendant fills it up for me. In the process he spills gas all over the tank and tonneau cover, doesn't even attempt to clean it up, then has the nerve to expect a tip!

I had a 51 also. Bought it in parts from a guy that was heading to Vietnam. Did a ground up restoration and drove it for 4-5 years as my high school car.....sold it 10 years ago