Find ethanol free gas near you.

[cognos]

Oh, you bet they count the animal feed byproduct as a return! Without that, ethanol production would be hideously expensive, instead of just ridiculously expensive.

[BioHazard]

I'm just curious, can anyone tell me what they use as fuel for the alcohol distillation?

If this ethanol idea is to work correctly, you need a crop that doesn't consume oil, you need to work that crop with ethanol burning tractors, and the stills themselves should be powered by burning ethanol.

[LowGear]

Hi BioHazard,

I'm just curious, can anyone tell me what they use as fuel for the alcohol distillation?

If this ethanol idea is to work correctly, you need a crop that doesn't consume oil, you need to work that crop with ethanol burning tractors, and the stills themselves should be powered by burning ethanol.

Sorry Citizen!  Logic is not a consideration of energy generation.  And the perfect world does not exist outside the Science Lab.

To me the questions is:

What the f$$$ is wrong with Vegetable Oil and Bio Diesel?  I think most of us believe that if all the factors of petroleum production were brought to the front alternatives would be on the front burner and the entire oven would be devoted to conservation.  Just ask Muammar Gaddafi how much petroleum really is costing him and the people under his control. 

Casey

[cognos]

The last figures I saw for ethanol, admittedly a couple of years ago, indicated it was about a 1.2:1 on energy out vs. energy in - this is for corn, and it varies widely. Currently, the only plant that is profitably turned into ethanol for fuel useage is sugar cane, with a return of 11:1.

The economic ratio is not that favourable, certainly waaaay lower than fuels from crude oil.

Although we (well, some of us, meaning me ) have strayed from the original intent of the thread, I think this is a good debate, and is thought-provoking... when we use any fuel, we should try to see it in a larger picture...

In my opinion, biodiesel from plant oil sources is more likely to be profitably capitalized in the market before ethanol-based fuels. Unless we start to see genetically-modified sugar cane in the Great Plains states... and that opens a few other Pandora-style boxes, does it not?

[rl71459]

I am enjoying the thread... Very interesting. I see points on both sides of the discussion.

I have a question. I was told by a friend that there is a country(Cant Remember) that uses only ethanol as fuel. Is this true?

I also had a friend who previously worked with me that gave up his career to farm corn for ethanol. Unfortunetly it tanked! and since then he has been trying to rebuild his families lifestyle. Very sad!

I personaly think Diesel engines are the best solution. With Veg, Bio, Waste... or whatever other green fuel that is useable in them. However I hope to have some form of electric vehicle in the future due to the fact that the existing infrastructure (and my genny) will support one with the least amount of fuss.

I intend to continue to own Engine Driven vehicles for long distance travel.

Rob

[deeiche]

rm /

[LowGear]

Hi Rob,

I intend to continue to own Engine Driven vehicles for long distance travel.

I think you really brought up an important point about energy usage.  There simply isn't a golden bullet.  Diversity and some thinking is the way to ease our societies back into a more sustainable life.  I hope to live 100 years just because I'm really nosy.  Think how different the world will be then.  And the number of cars in China and India not to forget the total number of warm bodies this old planet will need to support.  So many pie plates and so few pieces of pie.

Casey

[billswan]

The last figures I saw for ethanol, admittedly a couple of years ago, indicated it was about a 1.2:1 on energy out vs. energy in - this is for corn, and it varies widely. Currently, the only plant that is profitably turned into ethanol for fuel useage is sugar cane, with a return of 11:1.

The economic ratio is not that favourable, certainly waaaay lower than fuels from crude oil.

Although we (well, some of us, meaning me ) have strayed from the original intent of the thread, I think this is a good debate, and is thought-provoking... when we use any fuel, we should try to see it in a larger picture...

In my opinion, biodiesel from plant oil sources is more likely to be profitably capitalized in the market before ethanol-based fuels. Unless we start to see genetically-modified sugar cane in the Great Plains states... and that opens a few other Pandora-style boxes, does it not?

Cognos

Wish like heck I had all day to dig up info and post it here for the group to discuss.

Here is a snipit that I clipped off an pro ethanol web site

Ethanol, on the other hand, is the world's only renewable liquid fuel. We're essentially converting solar power to liquid fuel. Traditional corn-based ethanol returns 50-80 percent more energy than it takes to produce.

My question to you is is that right? according to your post I will guess your answer is absolutely it would be false. I ask about the 50-80 number part only.

Billswan

[billswan]

Benefits of Ethanol - Environment

Ethanol's Positive Impact on the Environment
Using ethanol as a vehicle fuel provides local and global benefits - reducing emissions of harmful pollutants and greenhouse gasses. Ethanol is currently the only available solution to reduce GHG emissions from the current fleet of vehicles.

Ethanol Reduces Greenhouse Gas (GHG) Emissions
According to the U.S. Energy information Administration, America discharges nearly 2 billion metric tons of CO2 a year into the Earth's atmosphere because we use oil for transportation. Carbon dioxide is the primary culprit in global warming. In 2006, the United States emitted 1,952.4 million metric tons of it into the atmosphere by using petroleum to power our transportation. Sixty percent of that (1,186.2 million metric tons) was produced by emissions from motor gasoline. The rest came from jet fuels, distillate fuels, residual fuel and lubricants.

Because ethanol is made from renewable, plant-based feedstock, the CO2 released during a vehicle's fuel combustion is "recycled" by the plant as it grows (photosynthesis). New technologies, additional feedstock, and higher blends of ethanol including E85 all promise greater CO2 reduction. A study performed by Argonne National Laboratory found that in 2007, ethanol use in the U.S. reduced CO2-equivalent greenhouse gas emissions by approximately 10.1 million tons, equal to removing more than 1.5 million cars from America's roadways.

Ethanol has a Positive Net Energy Balance
The U.S. Department of Agriculture has determined that for every 100 units of energy used to make ethanol, 167 units of energy are created in the form of ethanol. Dozens of other studies have concluded that ethanol has a significantly positive energy balance. These studies take into account the energy required to plant, grow and harvest the corn - as well as the energy required to manufacture and distribute the ethanol.

In an apples-to-apples analysis of all the fossil fuel inputs for ethanol versus all of the fossil fuel inputs for gasoline, Dr. Bruce Dale of Michigan State University has found that ethanol has a +27 percent net energy value while gasoline has a -18 percent net energy value.

Argonne National Laboratory recently completed a study comparing ethanol plants built in 2006 versus 2001. Results prove that the industry is becoming more efficient with a 6.4 percent increase in ethanol yields; 21.8 percent reduction in energy use; and a 26.5 percent decrease in water consumption.




Another clipping off a pro ethanol web site there are plenty more but some of the best just don't transfer well as they have charts and graphs that cannot be easily cut and pasted.

Billswan

[billswan]

By the way

IndyCar Series
it was a remarkable endorsement of the power of ethanol when, in 2007, the IRL made 100% pure ethanol the official fuel for the IndyCar Series.

And I believe that this year Nascar is using that damn no good ethanol too.

Billswan

[billswan]

By the way it is really politics that is at the core of this debate and of course it was made clear that after the closing of the octo what ever it was called that maybe we should not be indulging in the practice of fighting over it?

I hope we don't make the moderator MAD

Billswan

[billswan]

And here is something you tree huggers might like.

The Facts on Ethanol - Natural Carbon Cycle


Protecting the Environment

Our over-use of fossil fuels continues to strain the environment by releasing carbon dioxide into the atmosphere during combustion. Fossil fuels come from carbon sources that have taken millions of years to form. When carbon dioxide from these fuels is released into the atmosphere during combustion, the carbon cycle becomes unbalanced and the C02 level rises, contributing to global warming.

On the other hand, energy from ethanol is part of the natural carbon cycle. Ethanol comes from a living carbon source, such as corn crops. When C02 emissions are released from ethanol, the carbon is absorbed back into the crop, maintaining a balance of CO2 in the atmosphere.



Billswan

[billswan]

Benefits of Ethanol - Energy Independence

Ethanol is reducing dependence on foreign oil by producing domestic energy and securing America's energy independence.

The production of ethanol helps to diversify our energy infrastructure with local production of renewable fuels. Bear Stearns analyst Nicole Decker estimates that the 400,000 barrels of ethanol produced daily in 2007 could displace the gasoline output from 2-3 average oil refineries.

In 2006, the U.S. corn based ethanol industry produced 6.5 billion gallons of ethanol, more than the amount of oil the U.S. imported from Iraq or Venezuela. In 2007, corn based ethanol surpassed the amount of oil imported from Saudi Arabia.

Costs of dependency on foreign oil:

$1 billion per day
The U.S. International Trade Commission states that the United States currently spends more than $1 billion per day on imported oil.

$825 billion in 2006
All told, oil dependence cost America more than $825 billion in 2006. Twice what the country spent on national defense.

$49 billion per year
We spend $49 billion a year protecting oil supplies in the Persian Gulf even when we are not at war.

$137 billion per year
The U.S. spends more than $137 billion a year on military operations securing the safe delivery of oil from the Persian Gulf.

Source: U.S. International Trade Commission, Milton R. Copulos, "The Hidden Cost of Oil. An Update" (Washington, D.C. The National Defense Council Foundation, January 2007)

It would be nice if the graph also included a bar showing how much oil is produced inside this country.
Now just think what a gallon of gas would cost if the bar showing how much ethanol is produced would be just plain gone in the blink of an eye. Oh and if that did happen where are the refineries that BIG OIL would need to refine the extra crude? Yes there would be less natural gas and diesel used for that damn corn crop. I know that and acknowledge that. Of course there also would be less jobs at those damn ethanol plants and those damn farmers would get their buts kicked. We could get back to the good old days of varnish in the gas plugging up the fuel system. And water in the gas freezing in the gas lines in the winter. And then having to pay a couple of bucks for 12 ounces of alcohol to thaw out the fuel line.
Yes the good old days of smog so thick in the big city's you might think you were in China.

Billswan another damn farmer and filthy ethanol promoter.
Getting rich off standing on the backs of the poor US fuel user.

[BioHazard]

Let me put it this way:

If ANYBODY was really making ethanol to save the environment, not because the government told them to, they would not be using oil based fertilizer. Simple as that.

The fact that it is used in race cars is totally irrelivant, another move to make the tree huggers feel better, nothing more. 100% ethanol is good fuel if you have an engine designed for it and money is no object.

Again I will also point out that any net energy increase (if it does exist, I still say it doesn't) is offset by the 5-10-20% loss in fuel efficiency.

The only vehicles designed to run on ethanol efficiently are very late models. That means most of the cars on the road do not burn it efficiently and/or were never designed to burn even 1%.

[billswan]

If ANYBODY was really making ethanol to save the environment, not because the government told them to, they would not be using oil based fertilizer. Simple as that.

Bio

Dry fertilizers are mined and hauled with diesel fuel YES you are right now the whole world will know that top secret factoid that will break ethanol's back. Those minerals have been used for years and years. Nothing new there.

Now if you are talking about nitrogen well shazam by golly it is made out of natural gas. Always has been.
Well that is if you are talking the commercial type and not the natural stuff from manure.

Yes natural gas costs money but it is figured into the equation.

Just as the natural gas that fires some but not all of the distilleries is also figured in.

By the way very early in this thread you wrote that if manure was used to fertilize the corn that might be a better alternative than commercial fert. Well if it was available in an area I can assure you it is totally consumed before the commercial stuff is hauled in to finish, but it is only slightly cheaper. Have you ever had the opportunity to live next to a field that is fertilized with say fresh hog crap or even worse poultry litter well the latter will gag the heck out of you even if you are somewhat use to the stuff. But the real point I want to make is you should see the cost of the diesel fuel it takes to spread that natural stuff. I have used the natural stuff on one occasion and even though the cost of the poo was very low that commercial hauler's fuel bill was a whopper. And the compaction that is brought in with all the trips is another negative. I KNOW you are now saying what the heck does this have to do with ethanol and our argument. Well just saying that the fertilizer cost IS figured in and commercial fertilizer is a way of growing most all things that grow even corn.

One other point about the subject of irrigation yes it is fuel intensive but I can assure you I don't use it, and you can drive hundreds of miles in the corn belt and see no irrigation. But like you would say that is totally irrelevant as you have your mind made up.

It is to bad there does not seem to be some source of info out there that would be totally accurate and non biased for us to find the truth..................

Billswan a damn farmer with the government man in his pocket.