Find ethanol free gas near you.

[BioHazard]

I would be a lot happier to see those farmers growing soybeans or whatever and mandate 10% biodiesel mix and just leave the damn gasoline alone. It's a lot easier to sqeeze beans than ferment and distill alcohol. I wonder which we use more of in the US, gasoline or diesel? (including trucking)

Leave the corn for the whiskey!

[cognos]

Gasoline sales are slightly higher than total diesel sales in NA. Gasoline sales compared to on-road diesel sales - 2:1
For every "average" barrel of crude oil processed, we get roughly 1/3 gasoline, 1/3 middles distillates like diesel and jet, and 1/3 heavy stuff like asphalt and bunker. This is called a 1:1:1 "crack." Some lighter crudes have more gasoline. Refineries always try to maximize gasoline production, but you can only process so far before you are inputting more energy than you are getting out, and there is shrinkage the farther you go - the more you process, the more light ends you make like hydrogen and methane, that are consumed in the refinery as fuel gas, and coke, a very low-margin product.

[billswan]

Gasoline sales are slightly higher than total diesel sales in NA. Gasoline sales compared to on-road diesel sales - 2:1
For every "average" barrel of crude oil processed, we get roughly 1/3 gasoline, 1/3 middles distillates like diesel and jet, and 1/3 heavy stuff like asphalt and bunker. This is called a 1:1:1 "crack." Some lighter crudes have more gasoline. Refineries always try to maximize gasoline production,  and there is shrinkage the farther you go - the more you process, the more light ends you make like hydrogen and methane, that are consumed in the refinery as fuel gas, and coke, a very low-margin product.

Cognos

What is coke and what is it used for? Is it a solid or other?

By the way you wrote "but you can only process so far before you are inputting more energy than you are getting out,"

Just how much of the crude is consumed running a crude oil cracking operation?

I think it might be interesting to know as some of our members seem to think that ethanol uses more fuel to make than it delivers.

Billswan

[BioHazard]

Coke is the black crusty stuff left over at the bottom of the petrolium barrel. It is used as fuel like coal.

http://www.slate.com/id/2122961/

The stickiest question about ethanol is this: Does making alcohol from grain or plant waste really create any new energy?

The answer, of course, depends upon whom you ask. The ethanol lobby claims there's a 30 percent net gain in BTUs from ethanol made from corn. Other boosters, including Woolsey, claim there are huge energy gains (as much as 700 percent) to be had by making ethanol from grass.

But the ethanol critics have shown that the industry calculations are bogus. David Pimentel, a professor of ecology at Cornell University who has been studying grain alcohol for 20 years, and Tad Patzek, an engineering professor at the University of California, Berkeley, co-wrote a recent report that estimates that making ethanol from corn requires 29 percent more fossil energy than the ethanol fuel itself actually contains.

Ethanol poses other serious difficulties for our energy economy. First, 8 billion gallons of ethanol will do almost nothing to reduce our oil imports. Eight billion gallons may sound like a lot, until you realize that America burned more than 134 billion gallons of gasoline last year. By 2012, those 8 billion gallons might reduce America's overall oil consumption by 0.5 percent. Way back in 1997, the General Accounting Office concluded that "ethanol's potential for substituting for petroleum is so small that it is unlikely to significantly affect overall energy security." That's still true today.

According to the best estimates from the biggest tree huggers there might be a 30% gain in energy with ethanol. According to those of us that live in the real world, there is mostly a net loss. Even if you believe what the corn lobby tells you (why would you do that?) a 30% gain mixed 10% with gas results in 3% less oil imports. Whoop de frickin' do. It also results in more than a 3% loss in fuel economy.

Even Al Gore admits the ethanol BS was to help farmers, not solve energy problems. If you want to run corn juice in your vehicles then by all means do, if nothing else it's cleaner burning. But don't force me to burn it in equipment that specifically says not to use it.

There are better engery crops than corn. This is a fact. Why we don't subsidize those instead, I have no idea.

More:
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2005-07-18-ethanol-study_x.htm

Supporters of ethanol and other biofuels contend they burn cleaner than fossil fuels, reduce U.S. dependence on oil and give farmers another market to sell their produce.

But researchers at Cornell University and the University of California-Berkeley say it takes 29% more fossil energy to turn corn into ethanol than the amount of fuel the process produces. For switch grass, a warm weather perennial grass found in the Great Plains and eastern North America United States, it takes 45% more energy and for wood, 57%.

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/apr2006/bw20060427_493909.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/03/050329132436.htm

I would *LOVE* to believe ethanol is a miracle fuel, but not one unbiased source that I can find or have ever read supports that. I have, in fact, pondered buying acreage that I could grow corn on and distill my own alcohol for fuel. The amount of acreage I would need just to supply one car with fuel is laughable.

[DanG]

Living in a State with zero petroleum resources I find only one reason to like ethanol - If everything crashes & if the rest of the world (including Canada) refuses to sell the US fuel (worthless dollar anyone?) there will be some local resources for emergency services and public rationing if fuel isn't making it out of other US State markets .

No one should be seeing more than a small drop in mileage using a fuel with 10% ethanol.

Maybe they've got adaptive ECU tuning better these days since I see automatic 8 to 15% mileage penalty here on a well-tuned and happy 1999 Ford V-8 F150. I've also got a 99 Chev Metro, the 3-cylinder 1600 pound hyper-miler... that won't with ethanol. 38-44 ethanol mpg is the best it will do on flat prairie roads but I've seen 46-49 mpg using pure petroleum gas, that hits that 15% ceiling again (but the used car & repairs paid for itself in 10,000 miles compared to the truck!).. 1997 Accord with the VTEC 4-cylinder...  best highway mileage ethanol 31-34 vs. 35-38. Year in and year out.

Anyone remember the oxygenates (MTBE) they required during winter months back on the east coast that immediately took 10% mileage away?

Anyway - blends vary with proprietary formulations, whatever they can secure a supply of cheaply on the spot market. And, they enjoy selling more, cheaply with a perception of value than selling true quality with some higher price. There's a huge gray area of energy content - I wish they'd require BTU labeling on pumps.
Just some factoids... Energy contents by weight, not volume.

(US Gasoline gallon = 111,745-114,000, Btu = 120 MJ = 32 MJ/liter (LHV). HHV = 125,000 Btu/gallon = 132 MJ/gallon = 35 MJ/liter)

Best case Gasoline (isooctane/heptane) [47.3+ MJ/kg Heat of combustion]
Benzene: 0.1 - 4.9 (0.1 - 1.3 reformulated gasoline) [40.170 MJ/kg]
n-Butane: < 10 % [45.75 MJ/kg]
Ethyl Alcohol (Ethanol): 0 - 10 % [41.8 MJ/kg]
Ethyl benzene: < 3 % [40.94 MJ/kg]
n-Hexane: 0.5 to 4 % [30.0 MJ/kg]
Methyl-tertiary butyl ether (MTBE):  0 to 15.0 % [35.1 MJ/kg]
Tertiary-amyl methyl ether (TAME):  0 to 17.2 % [36.392 MJ/kg]
Toluene: 1 - 25 % [40.589 MJ/kg]
1,2,4- Tri-methyl-benzene:  < 6 % [40.984 MJ/kg]
Xylene: 1 - 15 % [40.8~ MJ/kg]

I dread pulling up to a station out on the interstates and smelling only toluene & xylene as I fill up...

[billswan]

Biohazard

I have admitted to being a farmer and having a dog in the fight by owning a share of an ethanol plant.

I believe it might be time for you to tell us just what is it you do as you seen to hate ethanol.

You also wrote this paragraph

"I would *LOVE* to believe ethanol is a miracle fuel, but not one unbiased source that I can find or have ever read supports that. I have, in fact, pondered buying acreage that I could grow corn on and distill my own alcohol for fuel. The amount of acreage I would need just to supply one car with fuel is laughable."

I am looking at the first link that you supplied and it sure looks like it is written by a biased source to me.
First I have a hard time with anything written in a liberal rag, and that is what slate is and if you look at the very end of the article you will find an acknowledgment that 1 of the sources is probably owned by big oil. Here is a partial quote "Patzek runs the UC Oil Consortium, which does research on oil and is funded by oil companies". The article is also 5+ years old.

As far as AL Gore goes he also falls into the totally untrustable category and  in anything that would come out of his mouth. Remember he has a long line of the sky is falling enviro wacko books. And  also  wrote the worst thing is the internal combustion engine. I believe those engines are a center piece of this forum.

I did have some info I was about to post that is current and is pro ethanol but as it came from the ethanol industry I believe that might not be worth doing. As it seems we have our minds made up.

Billswan

[BioHazard]

I believe it might be time for you to tell us just what is it you do as you seen to hate ethanol.

It costs me more to fill my car.
It makes my car less fuel efficient.
It makes my gas go bad faster.
The fact that we make the fertilizer for the corn out of oil is just stupid.
It makes my gas atract and absorb water like a sponge.
I own so many cars/trucks/boats/other crap with engines that I can't remember them all. Most of them were not designed for ethanol, but it is forced upon me.
It isn't solving any problems. Why are the ethanol plants going bankrupt? It's not profitable. Why is it not profitable? Because there is little or no net increase in energy. Even if you accept what the strongest lobbyists have to say, there is only a 30% gain, mixed 10% in gas, for a 3% total gain with a 5-20% loss in fuel efficiency.

Tell me what there is to like about ethanol again? Other than being a farmer or alchol distiller getting checks from the government?

If you have credible numbers that say otherwise, let's hear 'em. Do you grow corn for ethanol? Let's talk some real numbers.

[deeiche]

rm /

[billswan]

Biohazard

What do yo think I mean when when I write I have a dog in the fight and I am a farmer and own shares in an ethanol plant??

Now Please expand on this sentence you wrote.

"Other than being a farmer or alchol distiller getting checks from the government?"

THERE ARE ABSOLUTELY NO CHECKS FROM THE GOVERNMENT TO ANY ALCOHOL PLANT MAKING ETHANOL FOR FUEL. 

You like a lot of people are confusing the VEET (Volumetric Ethanol Excise Tax) credit that goes to BIG OIL to bribe them to use ethanol.

All I can say is I wish I would have the time to argue this out as it seems there is a lot of hate for farmers and ethanol. When the price of corn was so low the farmer was being subsidized by the government and through the department of ag. OH MY GOD those damn farmers a whole web sit grew up exposing those damn subsidies to those damn farmers. And now that about 20 years ago a lot of farmers invested in small local ethanol plants along with some of the big ag operators like ADM and Cargill making another use for corn . Here we are again those damn farmers and their damn ethanol. Oh by the way how many oil companies have built ANY new oil refineries in this country In the last say 20 to 30 years???
And on another note do you remember the chain of ethanol plants built by vera sun? Well they went broke because of some bad financial moves and GUESS WHAT ALL of those plants are still operating with the core group of those plants being bought up by WHAT-- an oil company, MY GOD if ethanol is so damn bad why would the oil company called Valero even want to deal with the competition just let them rust in peace. You just watch close as some of the other plants that are in trouble close they will just slowly get bought up and when the oil companies own the lions share of the US ethanol capacity you will then start hearing about how good for the country ethanol really is. 

Yes bio you should be able to buy straight gas if that is what you want and need in an earlier post I said as much. And yes I as a farmer think that the VEET credit to OIL COMPANIES should end. As I believe ethanol is strong enough to stand on its own, Oil companies buying closed ethanol distillers is PROOF of that.

And yes I have numbers but I will have to somehow scan them into the computer to post. I just don't have the time now to find them on the web but you can bet they are out there.

But I am skeptical I can change anyone's mind here...............

Billswan 

[billswan]

something i found to explain veetc

The Facts on Ethanol - Blender's Credit

Volumetric Ethanol Excise Tax Credit (VEETC) - Commonly referred to as the "blender's credit," VEETC was created as part of the American Jobs Creation Act of 2004. VEETC provides oil companies with an economic incentive to blend ethanol with gasoline. The tax credit totals 45 cents per gallon on pure ethanol, 4.5 cents per gallon for E10. VEETC is currently authorized through December 31, 2010.

The blender's credit has led to significant benefits for U.S. taxpayers. According to LECG in 2007, the blenders' credit prevented approximately $3.3 billion in receipts to the federal treasury. In the same year, the ethanol industry contributed $47.6 billion to the nation's GDP, created more than 200,000 jobs and generated an estimated $4.6 billion in tax revenue for the federal government. In addition, due to higher prices for agricultural commodities, direct support payments from the Farm Bill will be approximately $8 billion less than expected.

The blender's credit is needed in order to ensure market access for ethanol. Even though ethanol is a superior product, it is competing with a heavily subsidized product in oil and depends on that competitor to get ethanol to the consumer.

[deeiche]

rm /

[BioHazard]

Now Please expand on this sentence you wrote.

"Other than being a farmer or alchol distiller getting checks from the government?"

If I am not in the business of making ethanol, how does it benefit me? It increases my gas prices and decreases my fuel economy. Why would anybody want that? It's not a choice and never will be, you get what they give you.

If you can find a way to make ethanol economically feasible all by itself, that is, people are willing to buy it for 100% of the cost of production, and then some, because it's cheaper than gas, then I'll be one of the first to convert my pickup to 100% ethanol.

Oh by the way how many oil companies have built ANY new oil refineries in this country In the last say 20 to 30 years???

What the hell does that have to do with anything? Yes, they should be building more, but they have expanded the existing ones tremendously, and that has nothing to do with ethanol.

MY GOD if ethanol is so damn bad why would the oil company called Valero even want to deal with the competition just let them rust in peace.

Have you been drinking corn juice? Of course it makes a lot of sense for an oil company to buy an ethanol plant if they are legally required to use in their gas, and get extra credit from the government for it. Would they rather buy ethanol from the competition, or make it themselves? If ethanol is so great, WHY is it so extremely common for the plants to go bankrupt and why does their product have to be subsidized to make any profit? Why can't they stand alone without the government or an oil company behind them?

Ok you got me. It provides jobs to farmers. Boo hoo. Get a real job if you can't hack it by yourself. At least you have plenty of corn to eat.

In Oregon we have a law that says you can't pump your own gas at a station. You can be arrested. This law was created simply to make more minimum wage crappy jobs for pump jockeys. I think that's a load of bullshit too, and most of the people it provides jobs to, don't deserve them. I would happily vote to get rid of that law and make them all jobless.

How come there isn't a huge outcry from the meter maids losing their jobs to digital smart meters? Maybe we should make a law that says the electric company has to put the old meters back everywhere, just so we can create some more jobs.

[BioHazard]

Some valuable information you can provide, billswan:

How much corn can you grow on an acre in one year?
How much ethanol does that result in?
Do you fertilize with petroleum derived products?
How much irrigation is required, and what source of energy is used for the pumps?
How much time do you spend with a fuel burning tractor during the entire grow?
How much energy is used in trucking that corn to the ethanol plant?
How much energy is required to distill 1 gallon of ethanol, and where does it come from?

[cognos]

I don't know anything about the politics of ethanol. I do know a bit about the economics. I'll leave most of that off here...

As far as ethanol being a "superior" product - superior to what? It's just another fuel, in my opinion. A modern engine can be built and optimised to run very well on ethanol. There are many engines running on ethanol around the world, on blends, and even pure ethanol. The drawbacks are well known - decreased range per tankful, due to lower mileage, hard starting in cold weather with high percentages of ethanol, and it's hygroscopic - it'll suck water out of the air in storage, and then become acidic, so there needs to be some metallurgical changes to account for corrosion. Additives can take care of some of this, engine design the rest.

Plus, it's currently more expensive to produce than a gallon of gasoline - or diesel. Period. Even if you take out all tax benefits, subsidies, grants, change found in boardroom couches - whatever. And North American consumers have proven time and again that they want cheap fuel, the cheapest they can get. We won't buy ethanol unless we're forced to. So there you have it.

Having said that, I believe that keeping farmers working for a living wage, while we get some of this fuel/alternative energy crap straightened out, can't be bad. And some of the research being done on both sides wouldn't have been done without the enforced "incentives", and we'll benefit from that at some point, too, with more efficient conventional fuels production, and perhaps some cost decreases in ethanol production from non-traditional crops like switchgrass to make cellulosic ethanol. But don't hold yer breath...  

[LowGear]

I agree with cognos.

Except I'd like the farmers growing something that was more optimal for ethanol production.  Just as aircraft engines can be tuned to run better on alcohol so can agriculture be better tuned to it's end use.  I wonder if they count animal feed as part of the return

Don't worry, when the oil stops flowing out of the middle east our courageous leadershipnesses will figure out a way to get energy out of a turnip.  Let's just hope it's before they totally rape the national parks and protected lands and seas.

Casey