Expected life expectancy from WMO?

[billswan]

over the years i built 100s of 53, 71 and 92 series detroits, 2 stroke engines, many of which used the wrong oils, most of which inhaled, leaked
and in all sorts of ways consumed lot of motor oil.

i have seen dozens of these engine's coming in for overhaul that had white ash residue on the exhaust valve heads and stems, and the piston tops, however the only cylinders and rings that were worn out and not just glazed were engines that had some sort of air cleaner piping, element or other admission of dust/dirt into the air stream.

now why would these enigne's with significant amounts of white ash caked upon the pistons, valves and ports not have had accelerated sleeve and ring wear when you report such with your lister?

the detroit rings are a stainless steel alloy and the liners are induction hardened, and those engine's were not ran any significant amount of time at anything less than 75% loading with stable coolant temperatures in the 180 plus degree F range.

bob g

Bob

Thanks for the above chunk of commentary.

It is what i am thinking but am not near as a experienced mechanic as you. I might have been but farming got in my way.

I have said or at least have tried to say that if my 10/1 would have had modern cylinder technology I believe it would have made it much longer before it wore the cylinder parts out.

I have the old cylinder and piston and rings setting beside 70's farm tractor components that I know were advertised to be induction hardened sleeve that is. The piston has if i remember right has 2 keystone compression rings running in a insert. well got to go you get the picture.

Have lots on my plate for the next 2 days, hope to make a post with pix to show what I mean in the near future.

Billswan

[spencer1885]

For any one interested in building a WMO or WVO burning heater/boiler or just for more information on the subject google, altfuelfurnace ,a forum that might interest some people on this forum.

Spencer

[JohnF]

O.K.;

To try to inject a little empirical comment into this debate:

I have not run a Listeroid for any length of time on WMO - about 30 minutes just to "prove the concept". It worked well but of course I can't comment on wear.  HOWEVER, I do use WMO in my oil boiler that is built specifically for that purpose (it is actually a WMO/WVO designed boiler).  It is tuned to the tits and burns VERY cleanly, no smoke out of the chimney except for water vapour on cold days.  But here is the interesting part - every 30 days or so it begins to act up as if it were starving for oxygen.  Opening up the firebox shows a light (as in weight, not volume) white ash deposit on the boiler tubes to the extent that they are pretty much blocked.  Clean out the tubes and all is well again.

As I said, this is a well-tuned unit that shows no discolouration on a smoke test.  The only conclusion I can draw is that the combustion process results in the ash production and this ash is too heavy to blow through the firebox tubes and up out the chimney.  I think it can be logically assumed that the same thing could happen in a Listeroid and this is what is likely causing the excessive wear that people are seeing.

[spencer1885]

O.K.;

To try to inject a little empirical comment into this debate:

I have not run a Listeroid for any length of time on WMO - about 30 minutes just to "prove the concept". It worked well but of course I can't comment on wear.  HOWEVER, I do use WMO in my oil boiler that is built specifically for that purpose (it is actually a WMO/WVO designed boiler).  It is tuned to the tits and burns VERY cleanly, no smoke out of the chimney except for water vapour on cold days.  But here is the interesting part - every 30 days or so it begins to act up as if it were starving for oxygen.  Opening up the firebox shows a light (as in weight, not volume) white ash deposit on the boiler tubes to the extent that they are pretty much blocked.  Clean out the tubes and all is well again.

As I said, this is a well-tuned unit that shows no discolouration on a smoke test.  The only conclusion I can draw is that the combustion process results in the ash production and this ash is too heavy to blow through the firebox tubes and up out the chimney.  I think it can be logically assumed that the same thing could happen in a Listeroid and this is what is likely causing the excessive wear that people are seeing.

Spot on John,
Finally some one with experience of how WMO burns and it's deposits.

Spencer

[mobile_bob]

Spencer

let me make this short and to the point

no one is arguing the existence of an ash byproduct

what i among others are stating is this

not all oils produce the same amount of ash, nor will all oils produce the same ash compounds
nor will all engine's suffer the same wear issues burning wmo, and

there are significant difference in a waste oil boiler and an engine when it comes to the combustion process

engines run at a higher coolant temperature
engine's run at higher pressures within the combustion chamber
engines have a cyclic pumping nature that helps to move the ash out of the chamber with each stroke
in a positive displacement process rather than a much lower pressure static pressure process.

its apples and oranges in the comparison on so many  levels,  somehow these things seem to go right over your
head.

what can we learn from a boiler that is going to help us with an engine burning wmo?  not much other than we might
be able to test the residual ash for its abrasive characteristics, however

even that is problematic, because how do we know that the same compounds might reform harder or softer due to the very high combustion
pressures of an engine that are not seen in a wmo boiler

give me a break

bob g

[AdeV]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYZqAzEuPE8
(apologies, this video can't be run embedded... you'll have to lick the clink...

Runs on 85% WMO / 15% red diesel (gas oil), according to the commentary. Approx 2000 hours between services (assuming 90 days @ 24x7). Obviously his engine lasted more than 1 service interval...

[veggie]

It may also be important to note that not everyone is concerned about slightly accelerated wear due to WMO fuels.
For some, this remains a good fuel strategy. Especially for those who don't have access to WVO.
Although WMO may not be the ideal fuel, we still need to discuss the ways and methods for making it a "better" fuel.
Whether that be via a blending process or by engine mods, it is still a good subject for discussion.
Let's try to keep our posts within the spirit of encouraging experimentation and forming solutions rather than discouraging new ideas.

veggie

[spencer1885]

Spencer

let me make this short and to the point

no one is arguing the existence of an ash byproduct

what i among others are stating is this

not all oils produce the same amount of ash, nor will all oils produce the same ash compounds
nor will all engine's suffer the same wear issues burning wmo, and

there are significant difference in a waste oil boiler and an engine when it comes to the combustion process

engines run at a higher coolant temperature
engine's run at higher pressures within the combustion chamber
engines have a cyclic pumping nature that helps to move the ash out of the chamber with each stroke
in a positive displacement process rather than a much lower pressure static pressure process.

its apples and oranges in the comparison on so many  levels,  somehow these things seem to go right over your
head.

what can we learn from a boiler that is going to help us with an engine burning wmo?  not much other than we might
be able to test the residual ash for its abrasive characteristics, however

even that is problematic, because how do we know that the same compounds might reform harder or softer due to the very high combustion
pressures of an engine that are not seen in a wmo boiler

give me a break

bob g

Put it this way then,every gallon of WMO burnt produces ash.FACT
This amount of ash is the same volume to oil if it's burnt in a boiler/heater or burnt in an engine FACT
The volume of ash to oil is high FACT
The ash is very abrasive FACT
Abrasive ash in a engines cylinder will wear it out FACT

Now wants your point?

[AdeV]

Now wants your point?

Allow me to modify your post for accuracy:

Put it this way then,every gallon of WMO burnt produces ash.FACT CONJECTURE (some oil may not produce ash)
This amount of ash is the same volume to oil if it's burnt in a boiler/heater or burnt in an engine FACT CONJECTURE (need to run the same oil in both engine & boiler to be sure)
The volume of ash to oil is high FACT CONJECTURE (JohnF saw high ash in his boiler. No guarantee it's high for all WMO.)
The ash is very abrasive FACT CONJECTURE (some ash almost certainly is, but is all ash abrasive? Need to separate ash types & evaluate)
Abrasive ash in a engines cylinder will wear it out FACT (yep, I'll give you that one)

HTH.

[spencer1885]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYZqAzEuPE8
(apologies, this video can't be run embedded... you'll have to lick the clink...

Runs on 85% WMO / 15% red diesel (gas oil), according to the commentary. Approx 2000 hours between services (assuming 90 days @ 24x7). Obviously his engine lasted more than 1 service interval...

I have already posted about video and talked to him twice.
It was a failure.

[AdeV]

Could you post a link? I can't see where you referenced it & what made it a failure.

[spencer1885]

It may also be important to note that not everyone is concerned about slightly accelerated wear due to WMO fuels.
For some, this remains a good fuel strategy. Especially for those who don't have access to WVO.
Although WMO may not be the ideal fuel, we still need to discuss the ways and methods for making it a "better" fuel.
Whether that be via a blending process or by engine mods, it is still a good subject for discussion.
Let's try to keep our posts within the spirit of encouraging experimentation and forming solutions rather than discouraging new ideas.

veggie

Who said the wear was slight?

Can you read?

It's already be discussed.

[spencer1885]

Now wants your point?

Allow me to modify your post for accuracy:

Put it this way then,every gallon of WMO burnt produces ash.FACT CONJECTURE (some oil may not produce ash)
This amount of ash is the same volume to oil if it's burnt in a boiler/heater or burnt in an engine FACT CONJECTURE (need to run the same oil in both engine & boiler to be sure)
The volume of ash to oil is high FACT CONJECTURE (JohnF saw high ash in his boiler. No guarantee it's high for all WMO.)
The ash is very abrasive FACT CONJECTURE (some ash almost certainly is, but is all ash abrasive? Need to separate ash types & evaluate)
Abrasive ash in a engines cylinder will wear it out FACT (yep, I'll give you that one)

HTH.

Now you are showing that your talking about a subject you have no knowledge of.

[spencer1885]

Could you post a link? I can't see where you referenced it & what made it a failure.

Which forum, I can not remember,do your own home work.
I am sure you could being in your work shop playing with that Lister of yours for a couple of more years 

[mobile_bob]

"FACT"

hmmm, i am beginning to get a clearer picture of you spencer, obviously you are a younger man.

generally as we age and become more experienced we find out just how much we don't know, and the more
we learn the more we find out just how much more there is to learn.

one thing we all learn sooner or later is the world is not a black and white place

there are all sorts of colors and shade in between.

standing on anything and proclaiming it as fact usually end's in first "disappointment", followed by embarassment,  which then leads one
to the inevitable,, "enlightenment".

of all your asserted "facts" i would agree for the most part with the last abrasive ash is bad for an engine, however not all ash is abrasive

ash that is formed by burning some of the additives such as the zinc compounds likely are not abrasive, but likely look like white ash.
some oils are very high in zinc compounds (up to 15%) while others are quite low (~1%)  and the move by the epa has been to remove all zinc compounds anyway. those zinc compounds are used as an extreme pressure additive to aide in parts in the engine that are subject to higher stresses such as cam lobe/lifter faces, brg surfaces etc.  

while burning the zinc compounds might well reform them into compounds left in the ash that is harder and more abrasive, we really don't know that until the ash is properly analyzed.

or we could simply just blindly follow Spencer and eschew wmo and go pay the oil companies for pump diesel.

how about this my friend, what are you going to do when the crapolla hits the air moving device?  what happens when there is no pump diesel to be had, and there is no ready source for veggie oil?  what happens then  are you going to then run waste motor oil if it is available?  

of course you are!

are you going to be kicking yourself in the backside for being so reticent about doing some testing with those of us here that are suggesting we do?

how are you going to feel about using up your lovely lister having to run wmo, while others run twice or more longer just because they decided to do the research and experimentation to learn how to reduce the negative aspects of the wmo?

i can tell you how you will feel,,, you will be very disappointed in yourself for having had such a closed mind.

bob g