What makes an engine efficient, and long lasting?

[mobile_bob]

its not my intention to pop anyone's bubble/dream

here is the bottom line on longevity and efficiency in my opinion

every engine has its strong points, and every engine has its weak point too!

no engine seems to escape this simple reality.

for me it is a set of conditions that must be met, and then another set of compromises that must be made.

i think you can have slow speed, longevity/reliability, and also have good efficiency, but you can't have all three on the cheap.

it cost money for quality parts, quality machining and quality assembly, that is if you have a good design to start with.

having said all that, and given the fact i have made no secret of my dislike of the listeroid, its not because i think it is an inherently
bad design, its just that i don't think it is a good design as delivered from indian sources. i have always been critical of the big end
top oiling system as designed by the oem english engine, but we all know it was effective. what we don't address is why was it so effective
on the original lister but somewhat less effective on the typical listeroid. we can only surmise that it is either
A.  the attention to detail was better on the oem lister (which is likely), or
B. the oem listers were cleaner from the factory (also more likely), or
C. there is a difference in the metallurgy and construction of the oem brgs vs the indian brgs of today (also very likely in my opinion) or
D. all of the above.

this is one and only one item of concern, and there are obviously many others, so one either has to figure on not only paying a premium for
and indian engine today, but also must figure on paying for parts, machining and labor to make it into an acceptable engine,,, and to be honest
with himself in what the true finished cost of the engine really is going to be, how long is it likely to really last before needing minor and then major overhauls, all of this has to be totaled up and factored into the evaluation of the engine,,, at least in my opinion.

at the end of the day, how efficient is the engine?  best case typically is 1/8 gallon of pump diesel per kw/hr from a 6/1. that is good but there is better out there.  this is not to say that it might well be that a 6/1 could be a bit more efficient if it was cranked up to perhaps a bit over 700 or maybe 750rpm,,, it might well be the engine could produce closer to 4kw and the fuel consumption likely would drop to 1/10th gallon per kw/hr
at full load.  that puts it in the running with the most efficient affordable single cylinder engines... for this to work though it must be tested
and confirmed.  this takes time and  maybe from money to get to this result, all of which must be added to the cost of the base engine.

with a 6/1 bringing about 2 grand in a crate these days, i can see that it might cost another grand easy to take it down, bring it to spec, replace needed parts,  improve finishes, etc,   then fit it with the needed tstat, and all the other stuff to get it to an acceptable level of operation. after which then you can start to do the R&D on improving fuel efficiency.. at the end of the day i would argue you will have north of 3 grand in the engine, if you figure you time worth anything it will go over that.

so what else can you buy that starts out well designed, assembled, clean and ready to run out of the crate that can drive a generator and produce the same power at 1/10th gal/kw/hr?

it would appear to me that one of veggies s195's with the heavy flywheel option, turned down to sub 1000 rpm could deliver 3kw and do it at
about 1/10th gal/kw/hr at full load, and do it for about a third the cost of the indian listeroid example above.

yes the changfa is noisier, but at sub 1000rpm it is much quieter than it normally is, but admittedly probably still louder than the listeroid.
so there is the compromise, cost 1/3 of the listeroid, but noisier? seems like a good trade to me.

there are many other benefits or advantages of the changfa over the listeroid as we all know, the oil system being a major one, xdrilled crank
and pressurized big end, better quality parts, casting, and in most cases better assembly... and a lot less sand generally (there has been a couple reports of chinese sand)

enough about the changfa

for 3grand we can by a new lister petter water cooled twin and i think even a 3 cylinder, that is tier 4 compliant, and has all the nice stuff already on it. granted it will likely need to turn at 1800rpm, but has an sae bellhousing and can mate a direct drive genhead thus increasing efficiency another percent or two, at a reduced cost over buying belt and pulley.  this is an option that shouldn't be dismissed out of hand because of
it being 1800rpm (or 1500 rpm for those that need 50hz).  here you get a first world engine, tier 4 compliant, with a factory warranty that is worth more than the paper it is written on.

for me it comes down to what i am willing to spend, what i am willing to accept out of the crate, what i am willing to spend to make it do what i want/need/and expect it to do, and what is the expected lifespan before minor and major overhauls. this of course assumes i like the design to start with!  

in the 21'st century it is a hard sell for me to accept any design that uses splash lube to the big end brg, let alone all the other issues with QC from the indian assemblers.

ymmv of course,

everyone has a different viewpoint based on needs,cost, wants, abilities, patience and a plethora of other concerns that must be weighted out.

bob g

[BioHazard]

You keep selling me more and more on the Changfa. If only I could go down to the local tractor store and buy one, and some parts.   It would sure fit perfect in my garage and love the natural gas. Maybe I need to take a road trip to Canada...

I've been wondering why nearly all modern engines are designed for 1800 RPM or more, when they could do 600...now I know. Honestly this forum is as helpful as an expensive college course. You guys have thrown a lot of wrenches into my plans, but, at the same time saved me a lot of time and money and cussing, and put different ideas in my head to think about....

[SteveU.]

I have been sitting out in the side lines of this one . . . but no one has yet pointed out the importance of the AVERAGE IN USE lubrication quality.
Way back when, I bought new an early 1987 all aluminum 1.3L Suzuki Samurai I had a Mobil company gas card. So after a break in on normal mineral oil I ran it on Mobil 1 for the next 14 years - 121,000 hard screaming miles at an average of 4000 RPM trying to wear it out so I could put a "REAL 2000CC all cast iron" German Ford/Pinto engine in it. Ha! Ha! Just never could wear it out. So about 1990 I started putting fully synthetic Mobile 1 and then later Castrol 5W-50 in all of my 3600 RPM air cooled screamers too. Except for a plastic air cleaner cover failure on a Honda Harmony tiller I have yet to wear any of them out to be unserviceable. The equipment around all of these Honda's, B & S's, Tecumseh's, Kawasaki's and Kohlers falls apart first. Cast iron bores, different treated aluminum bores is not mattering that much as long as I keep the abrasives out of the airs-in and the crankcases, and watch, and change out the lube oils ASAP.
On these hot running, high speed, air cooled, no doubt the more stable fully synthetic oils really helps.
But in the same time frame I started religiously changing all of my other gasoline engines with the latest spec standard oils by a color and smell basis. Did the same on the auto trans fluids, gear box fluids, PS fluids and even brake fluids and coolants.
So we now have a 200,000 plus miles on a bought new 1997 mfg Plymouth 3.3L mini-van WITHOUT a noisy worn timing chain and still on it's original transmission, PS pump, antilock master cylinder, radiators and heater cores. I can say the same for our bought in 1995 at 14K, 94 Ford 5.0L F150 PU.

So this RPM speed = a 4X increase in wear while as a single factor may be true with ALL OTHER FACTORS equaled out . . . in the real world ALL OTHER FACTORS DO COUNT.
My 10.5hp B&S on the wood splitter I start up COLD daily for just 10 minutes of wood splitting for 200 days of the heating season and the poor wheeled string weed wacker with the Tehcumseh I run the pants off of for hours a day up into 90F heat on most of the other 165 days need both ~20 hour oil changes due to oil coloring and fuel contaminated smell changes.

Many talk the fluid change game but in my experience few actually do.
I bought a 1999 Honda CRV w/117,000 miles from a farmer who had done 3k mile documented changes - very, very clean underside of valve cover on a vehicle with a POOR crancase ventilation system. Yuk!  trans, brake and coolant fluids though - flushed them all.
Bought an OLD 1984 Ford F250 PU with 285,000 miles from the second owner, with both owners documenting 1500 mile oil changes. I can still see the factory honing cross hatch on the cylinder walls. This on a dumb gasoline emissions carbureted vehicle know for it's cylinder fuel washing.

ALL Factors count with your AVERAGE OIL CONDITION being the ONE you most directly control.

Look here for a 40,000 hour lived engine claim. Little all cast iron single cylinder water cooled running at 1200-3000 RPM. Has a 4000 hour, 11.4L/12 quart oil change schedule using a special oil - that helps. Runs 24/7 on gaseous fuels - that certainly helps a lot. They build them up themselves in a clean environment. All of the machining work, cleaning and painting done outside the assembly room - that helps.
www.marathonengine.com
Follow the Telecom, Islanding, Menateur 2.5kw, Ecoisland links for the specs and pictures.

This RPM thing is completely blown all out of proportion in relationship to other controllable factors.
ONLY Current benefit to low 173-1000 RPM is probably the ability to handle some of the really POOR quality to some of the alternative liquid fuels.

All my own opinions
Steve Unruh

[Tom Reed]

Great points all. Now if an engine will tolerate alternative fuels that come at a low to no cost (My last drum of wmo was delivered!) how does that figure into efficiency?

[spencer1885]

I think you are confusing efficiency with cheapness 

[Henry W]

Hi Steve,
The correct recommended oil is important to run in engines. Unfortunatly most of todays latest and greatest called automotive oils Including (Moble 1) do not have the percentage of zinc to protect parts from wearing like they did two or three years ago. Valve trains in older engines are having eccelerated were because of this. I guess you probably know who is to blame for zinc removal.

There are only a handfull of oils that have a good zinc content. Some of the oils that have a good zinc content since I last checked is:
   Some of the Amsoils
   Red Line
   Schaeffer Oil

If you see the STAR on the oil container that means the zinc level has most likely been reduced in todays oil.

I used to be an Amsoil dealer and they do have good products that I use in Air Cooled Engines. But for every day use in automobile engines driven for every day use I feel it is a waste of money.

The oil that I like to use today if I can get may hands on it is Schaeffer oil.

This topic can get very long so I will post a link. This link should help lots of you guys.

Henry

[Henry W]

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php

http://www.schaefferoil.com/engine_oils.html

Good oil for pre 1994 engines: http://www.schaefferoil.com/151_diesel_oil.html

Oil specs: http://www.schaefferoil.com/datapdf/107.pdf

Oil for natural gas engines: http://www.schaefferoil.com/114_engine_oil.html

More Data: http://www.schaefferoil.com/msds.html

[mobile_bob]

been my experience, my changfa will burn anything that a lister/oid will burn, and i mean anything up to and including
straight 30 weight motor oil.

it actually produces right at 5% more power with motor oil than it does with diesel, and the efficiency is up just a bit, but measurable.

i have one customer that maintains a fleet of delivery c20 and c30 delivery vans, all with 5.7liter chevy tbi and port injected engines
they all have been using 15/40 series 3 diesel oil (which they have on hand for their large diesel trucks), these vans average over 300k trouble free
miles,,, that with 6k mile service intervals.

one couldn't expect that from earlier 350 engine's because they cast them of poorer quality low alloy cast iron and had carburators instead
of fuel injection, but even those older engine's likely would run past 150k with similar service.

i happened to see the heads off one of his port injected engines, it had just over 300k miles, the crosshatch was still evident in the bores
no ring ridge apparent and the timing chain was still remarkably snug.  i would have expected it to be all stretched and worn out.

part of it is quality of lube, service intervals, type of service,and quality of engine component materials.  high nickel content cast wears very well compared to common gray cast iron.

bob g

[BioHazard]

Does anybody know what engine/MFG offers the longest engine hour warranty?

[mobile_bob]

"Does anybody know what engine/MFG offers the longest engine hour warranty"

thats easy!

oldstylelisters!

lmao

bobg

[BioHazard]

LOL, I almost said "except them". 

I know we all tend to freak out when things start moving fast, but what about a large generator spinning at high speeds, say 3600 or even 4000+ RPMs. (thinking natural gas engine) Would that be even more efficient at the cost of engine life? That's how boats work...full load/high RPMs for extended periods. I think the Honda inverter generators spin up to something like 7k RPMs don't they?

[Henry W]

I searched deeper in Marathon's web site that Steve U posted and found this. (Thanks for posting the site Steve.)

It would be nice to get more specs. on this engine:
Bore and Stroke
Deck Height
Rod Length
Flywheel Size and Weight

Henry

http://www.marathonengine.com/about_the_marathon_engine.html

http://www.marathonengine.com/downloads/diesel_progress_08-04.pdf

http://www.marathonengine.com/downloads/ecopowerdatasheet.pdf

[mobile_bob]

it seems to me that the marathon based cogen's are priced in the 30k dollar range, give or take a bit.

we can't take anything away from their engine, its well designed and does what it was designed to do.

having said that, it owes a good portion of its 40k hour life expectancy to its fuel of choice, propane or nat gas
both of which are certainly far cleaner than even the cleanest pump diesel no matter how well you filter it.

that and having the extended sump allows for more oil capacity which isn't going to hurt.

the marathon uses a synthetic oil iirc also.

as for 40k hours, that is impressive however not atypical in my opinion, as the thermoking c201's frequently would make 40k hours
too, running standard oils and having reasonable maintenance, burning pump diesel.

it really is a combination of quality materials, good design, attention to details on assembly, good lube, and clean fuel and air.

i really suspect that many engine's would surprise many of us just how long they could last, given clean air, lube, fuel, and applied properly.

bob g

[Henry W]

I just found out the engine is made by Briggs & Stratton.

This is what Marathon wrote:
Marathon Engine Systems was started in 1998 with the purchase of the Marathon engine from Briggs & Stratton Corp. The engine was originally designed as a long life power source for the Triathlon Heat Pump that was marketed by York International. This product was phased out in the late 1990's, but the engine found new life in other applications that could utilize its unique long life features. The original company focus started as parts supplier to the Marathon engines in the field, but has evolved to become a manufacturer of power generation products.

I bet the complete engine assembly as you see in the picture below cost well under $3,000.00 to manufacture.

Henry

[BioHazard]

I just found out the engine is made by Briggs & Stratton.

Originally designed and produced by, but they currently have nothing to do with it. I've talked to Marathon before about aquiring an engine and they won't give me the time of day.