Cat C0.5 - Perkins 402D-05 Bellhousing/Flywheel help

[Apogee]

I currently have two of the little Cat engines from Surplus Center.  They came with the flat backing plate and flat-faced flywheel.

I'm considering buying two Stamford genheads that are SAE #5 3600 rpm direct coupled units.  Yes, 3600 rpm is fast but that is where these little engines make their power.

So far, the best price for the correct bellhousing and flywheel that I've been able to find is $695 per engine.

Does anyone have any other leads that might be less expensive?  $700 for a bellhousing and flywheel on an engine that cost $750 seems a bit steep to me...

Finally, any thoughts on running the little engine at 3600 rpm?  I have yet to fire either of mine so don't have a feel for how noisy they will be...

Any help would be much appreciated!

Thanks,

Steve

[Horsepoor]

I also bought one of those little CAT diesels last year and have been slowly planning my build. There is a lot of fragmeneted information in this thread but consider these points before you go down the bell houseing road.

Maximum torque is around 2200 rpm, which will should also provide projected long engine life, so if I run it at 2300 rpm, I figure this will provide a margin for loading, dont want to come to close to the lower max torque curve.

Loyd is going to get back to me with a bolt on pulley / sheave part number. There is a table / chart floating out here on the thread that reflects the side load on these little CATs exceeds many other engines and is suffcient for side mounting and generator loading. So dont spend all that money when it appeas an eight rib micro V belt can be used in a side mount to drive a reasonable sized generator head.

OK, back to my plan build. I am thinking about mounting an 8 inch sheave on my CAT, bolting as close as possible to the flywheel. Then I have the option to run a cheap / screamer Harbor Freight & Tool 3600 rpm with a 5.1 inch pulley or run a ST 7.5 KW at 1800 rpm with a 10.2 inch pulley. I know the CAT wont make 7.5 KW at 2300 rpm but I should get close to 5 KW and be able to start larger pumps and motors with the extra capacity.

Check the Nov 22, 2010 post on this thread:
http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=213.0

While this post is up, I am going to check around and see if I cant find the charts on side load and the other documentation I referenced above. Also, Loyd indicated he has a part number on a CAT bolt on pulley, sure sounds that might be the way to go.  

Just found what I was looking for, gone back in an edited my post, check the May 2, 2010 post on this thread for the chart on side loading. http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=602.15
 

[Randybee1]

I had Mike Montieth machine a pulley for my CAT, and another for the ST head. He does good work!
Randy B

[Horsepoor]

Reference Mike M, yes he does extremely good work. I have several pulleys he made for me. Big chunks of cast iron spinning round and round. Just wondering what CAT wants for an off the shelf product.

[Lloyd]

Hi Bruce,

Here is the part number for the Cat-APU/Tradako Flywheel drive & the Gates tensioner, both have been certified by Cat to use. I spoke with the engineer who designed, and processed the certification.

The engine pulley is PN- 10873.

The upgraded tensioner number is PN 2279.

They are manufactured by Perrin Manufacturing Inc. NC Cat Nebraska, is the place to get them.

I thought I posted this info on my perky topic...but after looking I see that I sent the info as a PM to another member. So i will also post it to my topic.

Also Bruce I see that you sent me a PM, I'll PM you back and we can get to the subject of the message.

Thanks,

Lloyd

[Apogee]

Thanks guys for the info.

After thinking on this the last couple of days, I think perhaps I was a little overzealous about the direct drive option.  I saw those nice 2 pole Stamford 3 phase heads and initially thought they'd be perfect.

However, after thinking about it further, once combined with the cost for the correct flywheel and bellhousing, I'm not sure it's the way to go.  Besides using more fuel and wearing the engine more quickly, the increase in noise is not something I'm excited about.  So, I'm thinking that the "right" solution for me will also be to go the belt drive method.

Ironically, the dollars will likely end up being the same unless I make the pulleys myself.

But, the noise, longer engine life, and (hopefully) reduced fuel usage are the factors swaying my decision.  I just was trying to eliminate one failure point which was the belt.

Thanks for the help and comments!

Steve

[Apogee]

Lloyd,

I'm curious, how were you able to located that pulley and its manufacturer?

I've been searching for info and parts for the baby Cat and nobody seems to know anything about them, including the parts guys at two large Cat dealers.

Perkins has been more helpful, but even they don't know much as there are so many options available.  They are unsure because they haven't actually seen many of the parts (at least the flywheels and bellhousings).

I've not seen that pulley anywhere besides your post.

Any info about how you found it would be most appreciated!

Thanks,

Steve

[Henry W]

Max torque is not at 2200 for the cute little Cat engine. Max torque is between 2400-2600 rpm. If you run it near 2600 you will make 5kw of electrical power with no problem.

Here is something I started back in December 27, 2009. http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=484.0

Read it over. It might give you some ideas No reason to reinvent the wheel.

I think Mike Montieth still has the factory prints of the Cat flywheel, and everything else to turn pulleys that I gave him. I still have everything saved just in case.

As you read in an earlier post the Little Cat engine will take a good amount of side load. Here is the origional topic I started over a year ago. http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=527.msg5817#msg5817 I just made a correction in it tonight so it will not reflect the date I wrote it.

If you need any more info just PM me and I'll see if I can help

Henry

[Henry W]

Here are the prints of the flywheel.

Henry

[flywheel]

I currently have two of the little Cat engines from Surplus Center.  They came with the flat backing plate and flat-faced flywheel.

I'm considering buying two Stamford genheads that are SAE #5 3600 rpm direct coupled units.  Yes, 3600 rpm is fast but that is where these little engines make their power.

So far, the best price for the correct bellhousing and flywheel that I've been able to find is $695 per engine.

Does anyone have any other leads that might be less expensive?  $700 for a bellhousing and flywheel on an engine that cost $750 seems a bit steep to me...

Finally, any thoughts on running the little engine at 3600 rpm?  I have yet to fire either of mine so don't have a feel for how noisy they will be...

Any help would be much appreciated!

Thanks,

Steve

Steve,  I think you had better look at the duty cycle for the cat/perkins/shibaura compact diesels at 3600 rpm. 

Yes they will make about 13+hp at 3600 but read the gross, intermitent and continuous ratings at the bottom of the spec sheet for your engine.

You may change your mind about direct coupling to your engine.
                                                                                                             flywheel

[Horsepoor]

Henry,

You are correct, thank you for putting all this information on the same thread. I was going by memory from last year on engine rpm and torque curves. This CAT build project has been on my mind for a while and I've added a few small items as the topics come up on the thread (I.e. muffler, K&N air clearner, etc). Your points are well taken, I am now a believer on the 2550 rpm bracket area and the your methodology on the pulley sizes is excellent.

I am going to get with my neighbor (Listerboy), who also has a CAT in his garage, as see if he wants to join me on a order to for a flywheel mount 6.5 inch pulley. Thank you.

Bruce

[Henry W]

I currently have two of the little Cat engines from Surplus Center.  They came with the flat backing plate and flat-faced flywheel.

I'm considering buying two Stamford genheads that are SAE #5 3600 rpm direct coupled units.  Yes, 3600 rpm is fast but that is where these little engines make their power.

So far, the best price for the correct bellhousing and flywheel that I've been able to find is $695 per engine.

Does anyone have any other leads that might be less expensive?  $700 for a bellhousing and flywheel on an engine that cost $750 seems a bit steep to me...

Finally, any thoughts on running the little engine at 3600 rpm?  I have yet to fire either of mine so don't have a feel for how noisy they will be...

Any help would be much appreciated!

Thanks,

Steve

Steve,  I think you had better look at the duty cycle for the cat/perkins/shibaura compact diesels at 3600 rpm. 

Yes they will make about 13+hp at 3600 but read the gross, intermitent and continuous ratings at the bottom of the spec sheet for your engine.

You may change your mind about direct coupling to your engine.
                                                                                                             flywheel

I have those ratings saved someplace. I will try to remember to dig them out and post it.

Henry

[Henry W]

Your welcome Bruce,

Let me know if you need other info.

Henry

[Horsepoor]

After careful consideration, I settled on a CAT speed of 2400 rpm for low power, and 3600 rpm, if and when maximum power is needed. The generator head is a ST 10 Gen Head using a two step pulley system (7.33 inch and 11 inch). The pulley on the CAT is 5.5 inch all are step up for 8 rib Micro V belts which I believe are also called common automobile K belts. Mike Montieth machined several pulleys which turned out to be outstanding! I am extremely pleased, photographs attached below.

Then I started to think about the energy stored in these heavy pulleys. You got to admit, there is something sexy about spinning chunks of iron / steel, I guess. I measured the diameter and weight on the pulleys Mike made at 45, 15, 10 & 20 Lbs. Then calculated the monment of Inertia and kenetic energy available. I got about 2.5 hp at 2400 rpm and about 4 hp at 3600 rpm. So I figure the little CAT with the heavy ST 10 gen head, and about 100 lbs of spinning metal should be able to start pumps and other induction motors. I offer my quick calculations below for review.

I=   .5*m*(ro^2+ri^2)      KE=   .5* I * w^2   
               
11.1   dia-in   0.1410   Ro - m      
2.75   hole   0.0349   Ri - m      
45   lb   20.4120   Kg      
1.5   w -in   0.0191   m      
   I=   0.215267978   kg M^2      
   w=   1800   rpm   188.50   rad/s
   KE=   3824.32   MJ      
               
7.5   dia-in   0.0953   Ro - m      
2.75   hole   0.0349   Ri - m      
15   lb   6.8040   Kg      
1.5   w -in   0.0191   m      
   I=   0.035014466   kg M^2      
   w=   1800   rpm   188.50   rad/s
   KE=   622.04   MJ      
               
5.5   dia-in   0.0699   Ro - m      
4   hole   0.0508   Ri - m      
10   lb   4.5360   Kg      
1.5   w -in   0.0191   m      
   I=   0.016918515   kg M^2      
   w=   2400   rpm   251.33   rad/s
   KE=   534.34   MJ      
               
9   dia-in   0.1143   Ro - m      
4   hole   0.0508   Ri - m      
20   lb   9.0720   Kg      
1.5   w -in   0.0191   m      
   I=   0.07096631   kg M^2      
   w=   2400   rpm   251.33   rad/s
   KE=   2241.32   MJ      
               
   Total KE= 7222   MJ      
   Power   2008   KW Hr      
      2.69   HP   

Finally, I measured the distance from the center of the flywheel pulley to the block at about 4 inch or 100 mm. Using the side load data I estimate the design will take about 1500 N or 335 lbs of side force. I dont plan to load it that hard, so I hope to get a long run life out of it when I finish the build.   

[Henry W]

Very nice pulleys indeed.  How soon will you get it running? You have plenty of mass there to start pumps and other induction motors.

Henry