arrow k series engine

[vdubnut62]

Arrow might buy rough castings from India, that way quality could be controlled much better.
Ron

[Geno]

Check out this Smokstak thread.

http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?s=f7a7779774dc15269d90a5d488269acb&t=41957

Posts 20, 25 and 39 are interesting.

Thanks, Geno

[billswan]

Check out this Smokstak thread.

http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?s=f7a7779774dc15269d90a5d488269acb&t=41957

Posts 20, 25 and 39 are interesting.

Thanks, Geno

Check out post #56

Billswan

[mobile_bob]

thanks Geno

looks like m intel was good enough, and this is more confirmation

from the sounds of things, they are importing indian petteroids, fitting them with nat gas/spark ignition, got them certified
and now get something over 5 grand each for them

it sure don't sound like they are built here in the states, what with reportedly poor machining, cheap paper gaskets, seems like an indian
QC problem to me.

bob g

[Apogee]

Would make sense they're being bought from Korilskar.  They are one of the oldest Indian manufacturers and build engines for industrial use.  Basically, they have their act together and don't have the quality control issues we are used to dealing with.  They have been in business supplying industry for a long time and are not a fly-by-night outfit like we are used to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirloskar_Group

Doug's comment regarding running the Arrow's too fast might very well explain the problems the one gentleman noted.  They discussed the issues in more detail further down the thread and it sounded like too high of speed coupled with lack of maintenance might be the primary causes.

It might be worth a call to Doug at Arrow to find out exactly how they're able to import the engine or if they just import the parts and build them here.  Would be a very interesting conversation I would think.

Steve

From the SmokStak thread post # 18:

That engine is a natural gas conversion of an Indian Pertteroid......

That much said those in the know don't give the slightest hint of what it started as but if I had to guess I would say its a very close to the Korilskar DM10 ( 102-116mm bore stroke since this is the most common Petteroid for pumping and general service ). There are larger varients of the same engine in diesel, a 114, 120, and 125mm bore and 120, 125 mm stroke. The Arrow version uses tapper roller bearings but keeps the gear oil pump ( but you can get a babbit bearing version and you can get a version that uses a piston pump for oiling ) . Oil filtration is bypass with a remote because the Indian filter although looks close to a Petter PH1 filter is shorter and I haven't been able to cross reference it to an Donaldson ( some Idian casting offer a spin on full flow system, not sure why Arrow didn't buy this casting ). I don't know what sort of modifications were made internaly other than replaceing the injector with a plug but the Indian Petteroid DI piston has a lot of meat in the crown so I suspect it could have been machined a lot to reduce the compression ( in diesel this is 17:1 ) and make something better suited to gas. The starter is an Indian clone of a Lucas, but the water pump no idea. Fly wheel apears to be the 62 kg heavy with an outout shaft adaptor ( that hides a Gib head key ). Depending on the gear set these engines can have an 1/2 speed PTO off the cam gear and the output shaft for the cam PTO/start handle is the same as the flywheel nd available in a long or short version. Some Petteroids have the front of the crank exposed to drive an accesory pully, others use the 1/2 PTO ( with the HD steel cam gear set ) for this.

Very robust little engine, probably weighs in around 400 pounds in that form pictured ( without rad and frame )

Here is a close up view of the Indian version in diesel as sold by Lovson. This is not the same thing as an Arrow, a lot of these Indian engines have quality control problems. I suspect the Arrow is built from at least some Indian parts
but no one at Arrow will tell you anything about the engines.
http://www.lovson.com/peter-type-sh-series-engines.html

Douglas

[injin man]

Doug does say in one post the the engine is not assembled in India but that they
are using Indian Parts and doesn't say what's Indian and what's not.

[mobile_bob]

if they are assembling them at arrow then shame on them

using cheap indian gskts, poorly machined castings, and what kind of engine require valve adjustment every month of continuous
operation?

that alone is a huge red flag that something(s) are wearing pretty fast, and will need frequent replacement.

5grand and a 1 year parts only warrantee?  i can't imagine that being a big seller to the oil patch.

i bet the core engine is assembled in india, and then arrow assembles their spark and gas package, therefore they can claim US manufacture.

which is fine by me, its just hard to justify the price for a diy'er project
if the oil field will pay to use them, by all means arrow should exploit that market

i would just like to see the epa certification for the engine.

bob g

[Apogee]

whoa...

He never stated that they require valve adjustment every month.  He DID state that often the valves are NEVER adjusted from first-fire and as the engine wears in, the valves need to be adjusted or the pushrods tend to "slap" the valves open rather than pushing them open due to excessive clearance.  He also mentioned that it's specified in the manual that they should be checked at the service interval.  He stated that he's repeatedly seen this in the field as well as the engines being run at too high of rpm.  Once he responded with that info, the gentleman with the complaint then admitted that their crew has quite a few young guys who are likely not checking the valve lash.  He also mentioned that it wouldn't surprise him if the engines were being run above where they should be and said he'd be getting back with Doug but there were no further posts about it.

Several years ago I did quite a bit of homework on Kirloskar.  They are in a completely different league than what we are accustomed to dealing with.  Their pricing is higher but they back their product.  Since they sell primarily to industry, they can't deal with the half-assed stuff we've seen.

Now, is everything that I was told bunk?  Perhaps.  Is the metal softer or do QC issues still exist?  Perhaps.  But, on the other hand, I can't imagine EVERY manufacturer in India is selling junk especially considering they have ISO 9001, QS 9000, ISO 14001 and TS 16949 certified plants.

Maybe we just need to spend a bit more to get decent stuff if they'll sell to us.

http://www.power-technology.com/contractors/gensets/kirloskar/

Choose Agriculture in the right hand column, then choose Diesel Engines and Small Engines in the second drop down box and Submit.  (Don't miss the next link at the bottom as there are two pages):

http://kirloskarapps.kirloskar.com/kirloskar/web/home.html

Food for thought.

Steve

[mobile_bob]

Doug does state that one should be checking the valve clearance at each oil change, which is presumably monthly?

granted a new engine valve train might wear in a bit, a few thousands at first, but any quality pushrod will certainly not
wear out from a few extra thousands of slop, not at 800rpm engine speed.

the problem i have with the whole thing is attaching a name like "arrow" (which means longevity) to a 3rd world engine
that clearly has QC issue's (and generally equates to anything but longevity without some level of rework and or continuted
human intervention)

and...

i can't understand how some of these engine's are ok to import and sell (apparently epa approved) while we as diy'ers
can't get these engines.

no one is going to convince me that arrow has spent a dime in building these engine's in tulsa oklahoma, they couldn't buy them, pay
the freight, uncrate, rebuild them to spec, recrate and reship and do it all for 5 grand and have a profit.

if used rebuilt engine's such as the kubota oil field singles sell for 6500 to over 10grand, there is no way you can produce a new engine
for 5 grand in this country for that market

bob g

[Apogee]

I agree Bob.

It would certainly be nice to know exactly how they're able to bring them in.

Unless, they're "made in America". 

Perhaps they're importing long blocks and bolting accessories on and that constitutes "made in America."

I don't know.

Would sure like to find out though!

Steve

[Apogee]

Jens,

I firmly believe the notion of 40K hours without being touched is a myth.

I do know of stationary engines that are claimed to go 15K hours between rebuilds (Lister SR series) but even that is pushing it imho.  Yes, running in a stationary application is much easier on the engine.  However, if they were still running at 40K hours they were likely so far down on power that it was ridiculous.

Let's flush this out a bit.  Take a big rig for example.  1,000,000 miles divided by 60 mph = 16,666.66 hours.  Granted not all of the time in a truck is spent at 60 mph but I would submit that trucks usually get an inframe at about 500,000 or so.  Bob would know much more than I about this...

Another example would be an oil field engine.  Assume 365 days/year * 24 hrs/day = 8760 hrs/year.  40,000 / 8760 = 4.566 years between rebuilds running 24/7.  I would hazard a guess that the service interval for a major is far before that.

My point is, stationary or otherwise, the valves and seats will need attention before the other parts of the engine assuming it's been taken care of.  40,000 hours without needing a valve job is simply fantasy imho.  40,000 hours * 60 mph = 2,400,000 miles.  At 2,400,000 miles, while the engine might still be running, it would be barely running if one could get it started.

Let the flaming begin!!!

Steve

[Apogee]

Jens,

Was looking for oilfield rebuild interval info and found this thread on heavy equipment.

While heavy equipment is different, it will still give a ballpark idea on diesel rebuild times from a bunch of different posters.

http://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/archive/index.php/t-11597.html

Also this from Diamond.  Granted these are big units, but it still specifies 8K hours.

http://www.diamonddiesels.co.uk/industrial.htm

I would assume naturally aspirated to go longer, but how much longer I honestly don't know.  That having been said, I keep seeing numbers from 10K to 15K hours for a major overhaul.

Best,

Steve

[wiebe]

Engine live depends on piston speed/travel used material ,and cold starts .
And a good engine temp .
Am i missing something??

[Apogee]

Wiebe is correct in pointing out that the slow speed diesels should last longer.

Also, naturally aspirated also should help extend their life.

However, how much longer is the question.

Steve

[mobile_bob]

as i see it engine life is a series of components

1. excellent design, all aspects

2. excellent materials, especially in all wear related parts

3. careful attention to spec's from enigneering, in the machining processes

4. careful adherence to the spec's on assembly

5. very clean air, fuel and lubrication oils, of the proper quality and spec's

6. good quality maintenance

7. maintaining  proper loading, and engine temperatures that fit within the design spec's of the engine.

and probably a few i forgot to mention  

very few to none that exist with the typical listeroid or other indian product, and quite frankly are lacking in many aspects even
with the current production engine's from first world manufactures, because of cost/price constaints.

this idea that there was ever a lister that ran for 100k hours is on par with other mythological creatures like the fabled unicorn
or the bucket of gold at the end of the rainbow. just like mythical creatures the 100k lister never existed and there will never be a 25k listeroid much less
one that lasts 100k.

at least any such engine that went 25k (plus),  without some repairs and overhauls along the way.

10k hours is probably a pretty good number to shoot for with an indian engine, and even then it isn't going to happen out of the crate
burning oil with french fries floating in it, that is operated by some goon that has no clue as to what proper maintenance is.

present company excepted!

it would seem to me an indian engine that is taken down, cleaned, made right, reassembled to spec's, fed clean fuel, air and oil, and maintained
by someone that actually cares ought to average 10k hours between major overhauls, maybe a bit more but that would be just iceing on the cake.

i just don't see 40k hours as being within the realm of reality under any conditions, not with what we have to work with.

on the other hand, 10k hours is admirable and certainly a decent lifespan in my opinion, a lot of work can be done in that time, lots of kw/hrs, and btu's.
and when it comes time to overhaul it can be done fairly economically, so the tradeoff is a fair one in my opinion.

at least for most folks

imho, ymmv, ou812 and all that!



bob g