EPA Canada closes the door on non conforming engines.

[vdubnut62]

The account that they have access to is used only for my Paypal purchases, I don't use my "real" account for any internet related activities.
Ron

[vdubnut62]

 

[/quote]

I think that is more a consumer issue than an EPA issue.
[/quote]

Sorry, but the US EPA makes diesel cars meet the same emission standards as gasoline powered ones, up to and including a mandatory 100,000
mile warranty on the emission controls. I think they really do have an anti-diesel bias.
Ron

[BioHazard]

I think that is more a consumer issue than an EPA issue.

Consumers don't want more MPG? I could list a dozen vehicles I'd love to have with a small turbocharged 4 cyl diesel, but they're usually only on export models. Europe doesn't have the same regs, and diesel is the norm, not gas. IMO, we should be the same way.

[bschwartz]

Jens, I have been using paypal for years only allowing them to charge my credit card, NEVER take money from my bank account.  I actually just closed the one bank account that paypal wanted to always choose as the default payment method.  They weren't happy, and said I needed to give them a new bank account, or sign up for a paypal credit card.  So be it.  I now have a paypal credit card that can sit on a shelf, and I'll still use my regular credit card.  Paypal no longer can 'accidentally' take a penny from my bank!

[highwater]

I started to quote several of the posts, but there were so many that were hitting close to what I'm going to say.......

All sounding very much like the firearms license/transfer/import/sales/forms/manufacture/compliance/tax/registration/...........
and I'm in the USA, aware that other countries are much worse off.

A lot of things are possible
A lot of things are doable....

Possesion may or may not be a crime.
Importing parts is doable and may not be a crime.
Manufacturing is doable with the proper license.
Private transfer, still very much legal...in my area anyway.

Buy the right parts, put the right parts together, Get caught with the right parts put together........
Pay the price.

Then there looms the possible ban on transfer to heirs.

I must go borrow that machine gun banana smiley from another forum.
Randall

[injin man]

The Gun Ban theme was emerging in my mind when I first read that they banned the Listeroid here in the US.

I doubt you will end up with extremist groups hunting down owners of Listeroids or 'listeroid' clones .
Being a reviled gun collector I am fully familiar with buying and copying banned evil foreign products and the
bottom line will take you to the money not the environment, same with 'assault rifles', the manufacturers
here didn't want individuals making things that cost half what they were selling a similar product for.
This has nothing to do with breathing or safety. But I digress and lest we all become cynical to the point
of forgetting what the real purpose of being here is, this is all I have to say about the politics of individual
freedom.........

[highwater]

Only trying to parallel the similarities to the subject matter of Canadian EPA ban on non-conforming engines.

There now..........back on topic.

Randall

[veggie]

Looking to the future....
The only thing this really hurts is the hobbyists and those who prefer to use old style engines for power production.
Costs were low, parts were cheap, and access was relatively easy. They are fun !

There are (and will be more) many engines that are well suited for CHP systems (the theme of this whole forum).
Small two & three cylinder diesels (which can be modified to run on NG if needed). After all, CHP is all about efficiency.
The engine that Henry (HWEW) was looking at may soon become EPA certified...who knows.
This is the beginning of an interesting change and we are all smart enough to adapt if necessary.
Looks like we are being dragged into this whether we agree or not. Let's make the best of it.

veggie


PS: We have posed a number of questions to powers that be. Perhaps things will remain in our favor for a short time longer.

[mobile_bob]

one door closes and another door opens

it might be when it is all said and done that we come up with an alternative prime mover, or type, that turns out to be more efficient, dependable,
available, and and just better all around than what we have been working with.

at some point it is just best to quit banging ones head against the wall, and start exploring options.

may as well start looking into what has the best chances for success long term, what will have the most available and lowest cost fuel options
etc.

all the big boys in cogen are burning gaseous fuels, a fuel type the epa is quite fond of, and a fuel that is quite stable in supply in north america
at least, and is reported to remain stable in supply and relatively low priced over the next 20 years.

i guess that buys us time to get the diy reactors worked out



bob g

[vdubnut62]

Yeah, where is a Mr. Fusion when you need one?

Bob I just can't wrap my head around how you can burn a cubic foot of NG in an engine, and get power and heat more efficiently
than you can just burn a cubic foot for heat?
I'm sorry, I'm just not a smart man.........

On another note, can one reason with the Canadian EPA, or are they as corrupt as the one here? How is certification done up north?
Or am I unknowingly beating a dead horse?
Ron

[veggie]

Ron,

Certification up here is easy....
I must match the USA tier 4 standards ! Simple  
Getting that certification is approx. $22,000 plus 3 test engines. Then a hefty annual maintenance fee.
That's after you have done all the mods and proved it works. Then you submit it for EPA testing.
Oh...I forgot....there's a LOT of paperwork too.
No problem if you sell 3000 engines per year. Then it's worth it.
Each model size must be tested seperately.



Ron said,
Bob I just can't wrap my head around how you can burn a cubic foot of NG in an engine, and get power and heat more efficiently
than you can just burn a cubic foot for heat?

I think the point is that CHP provides electricity too! If an application needs heat, electricity, and a rotary prime mover, then it's all there in one module. If the fuel is only used for heat, then I would agree that a dedicated furnace (or some such heater) is the way to go.

Oh yes...and there's the "motorhead" factor. We just like to watch them run.....and golly, look at this...it also heats the house and charges my batteries.

veggie  

[mobile_bob]

you can't burn a cubic foot of natural gas, propane or even diesel fuel in a cogen
and make as much heat as you can in a high efficiency furnace, plus make electrical power too.

what you can do is make x amount of heat in btu's, and y amount of electrical power in btu's, the combined total of which can exceed
a standard furnace of boiler which averages about 80% efficiency.

a good cogen should convert around 80-90% of the btu value of the fuel consumed into both heat and power.

for instance,  a cogen burning a fuel with a btu value of say 100kbtu/gallon
might well be made to produce 60kbtu of recovered heat, and 30kbtu of electrical power, for a tptal of 90kbtu

whereas a standard 80% efficiency furnace burning the same fuel would produce and recover for use 80kbtu of heat from the same
100kbtu/gallon fuel.

so from an analysis of only heat from the cogen vs the heat from a furnace, the furnace wins, however the furnace cannot make electrical power.
so if you factor in the heating value of the cogen's electrical power (30kbtu) the cogen is actually producing 10kbtu more heat than a standard furnace/boiler.

if all one wants is just heat, he probably is much better served just to go out and by a super efficiency furnace or boiler, either of which can be found to be
over 90% efficient, however if you also need electrical power (which most of us do) and can fuel the cogen with a cheaper fuel, and can build an efficient cogen, then cogen is clearly the winner.

actually cogen makes sense if you can get a combined efficiency over about 70% (heat and electrical) if the fuel is cheaper than heating oil (which natural gas is)
or in certain area's and applications where electrical rates are very high relative to nat gas prices, and/or the add on charges, taxes etc inflate the kw/hr aggregate charge for electricity.  

if you live in a very small house, highly energy efficient, in an area where electricity is high, like 12cents/kw/hr but the bill includes line charges, meter chargers, distribution, taxes, etc, the adjust true value of the electricity might well exceed 20 cents/kw/hr or more... under those conditions a cogen can make serious economic sense.

if you live in an area with access to nat gas, or have a propane or cng tank installed, you have a much more reliable source of power than electricity generally
days when the gas mains are down are much fewer than days when the electricity is out. cogen again starts to make sense under these conditions.

cng or propane can be bought during times of the year when the price is lowest, very difficult to do with electricity, unless you have massive battery banks available,, and even then the battery system depreciation would be horrendous.  far greater than 20cent/kwatt/hr without doing the math.

there are so many factors involved when doing an analysis between cogen and just burning the fuel for heat.

where i am not sure that cogen makes sense is to provide for 100% of the heating load of the home, under which circumstances matching the cogen
to a variable load would be very difficult to do and keep high overall efficiency.

in my opinion that cogen makes best sense and a "bottoming cycle" or baseload system, where the unit is undersized for the heating requirements needed
this would allow the unit to run at peak load and peak efficiency with the load being able to absorb 100% of what the cogen can deliver, any shortfall would be made up with more conventional heating systems, such as a furnace or boiler.  this would assure that the cogen operates at its peak designed efficiency, providing and using all the available heat and electrical power without resorting to large and expensive storage schemes.

if that makes sense

bob g

[Geno]

I'm pretty much doing what Bob suggests but my cheap fuel is WVO. I have the grid connect, I just don't use it when my demands are high or when I need hot water. Since 2006 my electricity usage has gone from about 400 KWH per month to 200. I've made other changes as well but not big ones and a lot of it has just been using my head. Total cost for electricity in my area is now about 21 cents per KWH.  My lowest month was 151 KWH and the bastards charged me 24c per KWH.

Thanks, Geno

[injin man]

Bob

I've been working to become not dependent on the 7 sisters and their keepers.
The fact that millions of tons of biomass are bulldozed into landfills is reason
enough to get off the gas. The wood gas/boiler/steam engine prime mover model
is the one that makes the most sense to me, all systems that use alternative fuels
require you to make them as efficient as practically possible to conserve resources.
The Lister/changfa model provides a powerful backup when you need it and it's
simple and that's probably what's getting us upset, I can buy anything I want that
I'm willing to pay for and I don't like some stinking bureaucrat limiting my choices
based on what he saw in Algore's movie.

[mobile_bob]

Injin:

we all have felt your pain my friend, and most also your anger, however
some of us are past the anger stage, the grieving stage, and are now moving on to the "what the hell are we gonna do about it" stage.

believe me when i say

i have no love for algore and the whole global warming crowd that has foist upon us these draconian reg's that have made it impossible to
legally import, sell or purchase new engine's.

way past time to buck up and do whatever we can about it.

i know there is enough smarts here to come up with an alternative that is in all likelihood superior to what we have been using anyway.

if we look back on all the mental effort, money, blood sweat and tears that went into working out the quality issues with many of these engine's
i wonder if it was really all worth it?  when maybe we could have spent less time and money on another option that would accomplish the same end goals?

personally i really think this is true

didn't always think so, but am sure it is so now.

so anyway, its ok to be pissed off and mad about the epa regs,

anger is a powerful motivator.


bob g