EPA Canada closes the door on non conforming engines.

[BioHazard]

Does anybody know if a standard listeroid can be imported in peices, maybe in differnt containers, and then assembled in North America? As I understand it you pretty much have to completely 'rebuild' a listeroid before the first start anyway due to Indian quality control...

[playdiesel]

Oh you could probably assemble an engine or two from pieces and get away with it, I guess Id go as far as to say yes you can could get away with it. Two problems, one is cost, You can get the biggest part of a 6/1 ( In number of pieces) from Central Maine Diesel for $499 but they also charge you for shipping, crating, tax, box tape, ink for their pens, handling, talking to you on the phone and I don't know what else, I do know a $499 engine kit is over $700 delivered. Then you need to source a crankcase, crankshaft, main bearing castings, flywheels, connecting rod, cam covers, crankcase dorrs, uhh, hmm  ???think that's all? from India. Maybe some have checked into this I have not but I have checked on other similar parts and Id guess (wild guess) you would be looking at 1500.00 by the time you had those parts in your hands.  Second problem is when you assemble a new engine from parts  you have just committed a crime. Going back to my answer to problem one you can likely get away with a motor or two for your own use because the EPA cannot chase down every such thing but buy enough parts to get them cheap and Id be sleeping with one eye open and my back to the wall. Another way "around" might be to call them rebuilds, you better document things well if you think your going to get away with that. A person needs to realize that the EPA is a big outfit with far ranging abilities. Dont think for one minute that you would be trying to fool some bald headed dude with thick glasses or cute chick who colectively just fell off a turnip wagon.  When it comes to sniffing out those who are trying to circumvent EPA rules and regs think of them like you would if trying to fool one of us, belive me, they have been there, and done that, I deal with them almost daily.
The reality, in my opinionated opinion is that the days of importing the engines, complete or in pieces in any appreciable quantities is over as long as they look at them the same as any other commercial engine.  One way around all of this would be to get the engines classified as a hobby or sporting engine, much like builders get away manufacturing all new and complete building racing engines based  (loosely) upon 1955 Chevrolet V-8s that meet no EPA regs what so ever. They even install them in replica 1950 hot rods and drive them on the streets. No racing engines have to meet EPA rule why my hobby engine???  gimmie back my Indian copies of Listers or make the racing community quit building same would be my defense given the time and money and inclination do it, but I have none of the above. When one thinks of the vast quantity of Listeroids in this country now and the fact that (well I think it would be fact??) that the most of them are in hobby usage or future projects on hold and not in full time operation I don't see how they could turn a person down??? But what do I know?

[BioHazard]

Just out of curiosity, are there ANY single cylinder water cooled diesel engines available in the US/Canada legally at this time? (besides pre-bans, obviously) I know of at least a few air cooled...but no water cooled....

[playdiesel]

Any available? Yes there are, All that were here before the ban, and for currently for sale

Just kidding I know what you meant, generaly available new and not from an individual. Not sure about singles but there are several makes of cute little doubles out there, Yammar, Kabota, Perkins and Perkins sold as Caterpillars, and Lister(I  think). All are higher speed engines.

[vdubnut62]

The way that I see, (and it's probably not legal) is to buy one of the Indian Water Cooled Air Compressors, and then purchase one of the kits to convert it to an engine.
The other alternative is (personally I can't afford it) to bid on and win one of the Original Listers in the process of being imported from England.
Either way is awfully expensive for 6hp IMHO. As Mobil Bob says, "Your mileage may vary".
It boils down to how bad you want one and how much money you have to spend on a "hobby" engine.
Then IF the EPA decides to make it so, ANY engine, regardless of age will have to meet
CURRENT emission standards if they are rebuilt! There is talk of this already. How is anyone going to make an 80 year old design compliant?
How about the Chinese horizontals? I don't see a big chance of emission compliance there.
We are going to be reduced to being environmental criminals for running one of these things. And to be frank, I'm not optimistic that the EPA will decide to work with SOMRAD in the foreseeable future. I think they will drag their feet and hope we go away.
So put your wet towel under the door before you start the engine, like you did in College when you fired up a fattie.
Ok go ahead and smack me down for being cynical, I probably deserve it.
Ron

[mobile_bob]

Ron:

i don't see it any other way than you have laid it out.

the epa regs now state that any engine that is reconstructed must be brought up to the current tier standards, although
they don't seem to be enforcing that yet, it is only a matter of time.
'
the problem is the rather loose use of the word, " reconstructed"  that could be anything fron a minor overhaul, a ring and brg job
to a complete overhaul,, its up to them to decide how, when, where, to whom and to what extent they want to apply this rule.

or like everything else they can always redefine it more strictly or loosen the standard, which the latter is unlikely in my opinion.

this is the basis of my interest in looking into gaseous fueled engine's, we have millions of engines available to us here and now
and it is unlikely that they will ever get rid of all of them.

bob g

[Crofter]

It is easy for the establishment to inflict pain at any point where we have to fill out papers or swipe our plastic; computers instantly know everything, everyone, and every smallest rule. Where the freedom will exist is in handshake deals. The way the economy is leaning there will soon not be the funds for manpower to police the back yards and scrap yards, so that may have to be the source for engines. Environmental outlaw! ya, so?.......    I have been called worse! 

Times, they is a changin'

[RogerAS]

It is easy for the establishment to inflict pain at any point where we have to fill out papers or swipe our plastic; computers instantly know everything, everyone, and every smallest rule. Where the freedom will exist is in handshake deals. The way the economy is leaning there will soon not be the funds for manpower to police the back yards and scrap yards, so that may have to be the source for engines. Environmental outlaw! ya, so?.......    I have been called worse! 

Times, they is a changin'

Sad, ain't it?

Can one of our home diesel engine POSSIBLY produce more pollution than a F350 or DURAMAX pulling an RV? My father-in-law has a big dualy Dodge and it burns 12+ gallons of fuel to come here to see us, a 5 hour trip. I don't burn that much in a month of hard use with my little Kubota.

Seems to me the whole environment thing is a crock. Not that pollution doesn't harm the environment but that some (rich) folks are allowed to burn all the fuel they want while those of us not playing by the rules are screwed over. I agree that we should start looking into scrap yards and other places for engines we can maintain. The thing about that is the Chinese are driving up the recycling of steel to a point where millions of old fords, chevys and dodges are getting melted down for new microwaves and such. If you want an engine I say start hunting now!

Screw 'em! I'm never getting back on the grid, and if I have to live without power I will, but as long as there are old engines around some of can make one work for us. Only when they demand we register every gallon of fuel can they really control us, and even then I can imagine a bunch of cheats.

This is getting really stupid.

[Crofter]

It is easier to put together, enact, and enforce a "one size fits alll" regulation. Yes it is stupid to have the law applied to the miniscule usage of our hobby engines but the powers that be are grasping at straws in trying to put the genii back in the bottle. My wife was just talking to someone at work who was on a trip to China last week. He said the smog is unbelievable. They dont need no stinkin' EPA there!

We can moan about it but not much chance of getting excused unless we can find some clause within the regulation that we can bend to our advantage. Still, any loophole like the compressor idea would likely be good for only a short while till it got stoppered. What importer is going to gamble on having a container full being seized or sold by force for scrap.

[vdubnut62]

Jens, Why does it have to be that complicated? Is it some sort of international banking rule with India?  What I mean is can't we use  Paypal or something similiar?
I have a "friend" in the Ukraine. When my Russian tractor breaks, I email him, he gets my parts, lists them with "buy it now"  on Ebay, and emails me the listing number.
I pay for them with paypal, so nobody can get hurt.
It is safe, efficient, and I get my parts for a little less than a third of what a US dealer gets. That does include my shipping, which is pretty high.
May not work for India, but I have really good luck with it.
What ya think?
Ron
PS Anand told me the same price for a knocked down engine as for an assembled one last year when I asked. the up side is the Indian engine prices
"should" start coming down with fewer places to sell them (I think they were starting to gouge us a little.)

[Tom Reed]

Time for another group buy? It's a crying shame what's happening in this world. We know that eventually the screws are going to be put to the mfgr's of these engines in India and China. If it happens as fast as this with the Canada EPA we could be effectively shut out of spare parts. I'm regretting not getting a spare crank and rod last time around.

[Tom Reed]

Jens, Why does it have to be that complicated? Is it some sort of international banking rule with India?  What I mean is can't we use  Paypal or something similiar?
I have a "friend" in the Ukraine. When my Russian tractor breaks, I email him, he gets my parts, lists them with "buy it now"  on Ebay, and emails me the listing number.
I pay for them with paypal, so nobody can get hurt.
It is safe, efficient, and I get my parts for a little less than a third of what a US dealer gets. That does include my shipping, which is pretty high.
May not work for India, but I have really good luck with it.
What ya think?
Ron

Great idea Ron, perhaps someone reading this forum in India will step up to the plate?

[veggie]

There will most likely be a supply of parts for a long time. Although they will cost more due to freight, brokerage etc....
As Jens noted, keeping existing engines going should be possible.
However, those who aspired to someday own a new one (listeroid or Changfa) are now very disappointed.

Regarding air compressor conversions and building from parts....
Don't forget that all of these ideas you are posting on the world wide web are just as easily read by the authorities. 

veggie

[BioHazard]

How ironic is it that these are freely available to people in 3rd world countries, for very minimal cost, in almost unlimited quantities....yet we can't get one in North America.

I still don't understand why the EPA is so anti diesel, even in cars, look how many diesel choices there are in the US. Why no diesel hybrids getting 100mpg? At the same time Harbor Freight can import smoke spewing 2 stroke generators by the millions. If I take my 2 stroke outboard boat for a ride, it's so inefficient that raw gas and oil are dumped into the river, I can use 20 gallons of fuel in an hour. My outboard even has a drip tray under the carbs for gasoline, which is drained directly into the river. That's how it came stock. Not a crime...

[BioHazard]

I think one key to finding a loophole for these things in CHP use is to get them imported already setup to run on natural gas or propane. It would almost certainly pass any emissions test the EPA could come up with. And spark ignition imports seem like cake...