thinking of exploring another option

[mobile_bob]

after doing a bit of research it appears the 2.3hsc engine's did have some issues with cracked heads
the reasoning is that the induction hardening of the exhaust seat area places significant stress in that area.

might be best to have the head reworked and fitted for hard seats, cutting out the induction hardened area
ought to remove the culprit.

also i am not sure if it is a problem with all the years that this engine was available?

from what i can tell the base engine's if you have a good one, and maintain it well will make 300-400kmiles which is good
and as i suspected they are about worthless as they aren't worth the effort for the yards to pull them because the cars are of
no real value that they go in.  so they don't pull many unless they check out as being good ones.

from the topaz/tempo forums, it appears one should not give much for these engine's because they just aren't worth much
one guy suggests good ones should be in the 200 dollar range, and certainly never as much as 500bucks.

i think i will still go have a look at the local engine, it is pulled on in their warehouse so i can at least get a good look at
what it looks like it would be to use it for our application.

maybe if it looks good, and worth messing with i will offer him a couple hundred and see if he takes it, then see how it works out.

it might be that because the cogen application only requires 1800rpm, and less than 12kwe with a good cooling system, it won't be under a lot of stress
and be ok? 

just because the have a history of cracking heads does not mean they all cracked

from another head repair site, apparently the late model dodge 318, the 87 and up vortec chevy, the iron duke and a few others also have a history of cracking heads, and we know they didn't all crack.

point is "if" the engine fits the need, is easy to work with and can be found with low miles and in good condition for ~250 bucks or less, i think it might be a decent platform to develop into a cogen.

if it works i think i will start collecting them as they come up.

as i see it the engine needs to be relatively cheap to start with, widely available, reliable, and simple to work with. i think apart from the head issues this engine fills the bill nicely.

the only other one i like is the volvo engine, and i might look into that one as well.

ideally we could come up with a platform to develop all the ancillary bits and pieces for, things like engine mounts, generator drive components, pumps, heat exchangers that are optimized for the specific output of the engine, etc.

the one thing that the lister/oid and the chanfa/oids have in spades is a certain level of consistency where if someone develops a part and finds it to be a good fit, it will not only fit his but every other lister/changfa on the planet.

going to be hard to do with gas engine's unless we boil down the jillions of possibles to perhaps a couple base engines.

bob g

[TimSR2]

On reflection,

I think that the idea of a lightly loaded ng chp should  for household purposes be much, much smaller than what we have been discussing, like a  24 or 48 v dc generator  used with an inverter  and battery bank. DC alternators would allow us to run any rpm.   Autostart on low battery signal from the inverter or low temp when there is a 'call for heat' from the heat system.  We should be avoiding continuous runs like a storebought generator and moving toward a demand system.

A system designed around a small currently available industrial watercooled  engine,run at low load and medium rpm , on natural gas,  with storage batteries, hot water storage, autothrottle and a reasonably sized inverter..., say a 3 kw Grid tied?  Built into a small package with boiler heat interface controls and autostart. That would be impressive.

[mobile_bob]

i am thinking a step ahead of you on this one

if the unit is running it should be only when there are sufficient scheduled heavy loads to be serviced, therefore 1800rpm 60hz operation,
while this is taking place additional alternator(s) to provide for direct battery charging, and a differential governor so that it only runs at 1800rpm
if there is a load that needs serviced, otherwise it could drop to something more economical like perhaps 1000rpm.

having the ability to also drive an A/C compressor for refrigeration loads would also be of a benefit so that any combination of loads could be serviced
at either 1000rpm or 18000rpm and optimize the load on the cogen

an ideal control system would sense and evaluate all of the load demands and make the appropriate setups, start and service those loads in the most efficient manner
and then shutdown the cogen, poll for data and restart when programmed conditions are met.

with nat gas currently priced at about 1.04 per gas gallon equivalent, the unit could be fueled for about 1/3 the cost of pump diesel.

and if we use some sort of control scheme that limits the run time to optimize the overall system, the cost of operation gets cheap enough to not want to mess with burning waste oils once one factors in the true real costs of those waste fuels.

imho

bob g

[BioHazard]

A system designed around a small currently available industrial watercooled  engine

Such as? I think one of Bob's best points here is this machine can be made from junkyard automobile parts, thus they are much more common and easier to find, and I would guess that I could buy a 4 banger car engine for cheaper than a two banger 'industrial' engine. That's the whole problem with small water cooled diesels, they are almost non existant unless you're rich or you happen to get your hands on a foreign copy, and that's only getting harder and harder. With an iron duke, on the other hand, I would bet you can get most parts from a GM dealer...

As someone noted above even if you only want two cylinders it might be easier to start with a 4 cylinder and take two of the pistons out. I still think a target of around 1200-1500 RPM would be good, with a belt drive.

[RogerAS]

My opinion is that the Ford 2.0 and 2.3 cast iron I-4 engines are hard to beat. I had one in a '74 Mustang II and have on now in the '92 Ranger 4X4. The first engine was a carbed job whereas the last is am injected version. The carbed version was far more powerful than the truck motor, but both were/are bullet proof. My truck engine has 234 K on it and still runs fairly good. The compression is down, but that is just old rings. "Racer Walsh" has performance parts of all sorts. Ford built a version of this motor with a turbo they put in T-birds and some Mustangs. They have a flow through head with intake in one side and exhaust on the other. I'm pretty sure Ford made a diesel version of this engine.

R

[Henry W]

The 2.3 engine in the turbo mustang and thunderbird are known to crack heads. There are other places to purchase performance parts cheaper than from Racer Walsh. I used to purchase loads of parts from them when they were up north when I was building ford drag boat engines. The 2.3 OHC is a good engine as long as you have a good head. talking about a 2.3 diesel in a Ranger, Don't even think of getting one of those!!! They blow up. And they are made by Mitsubishi and they are total junk. one of the worst engines Ford ever used.

This is why I like the B230F engine from Volvo so much. They are easy to find. They do not crack heads. they do not have all the smog junk on them. They have a taller deck block than the Ford 2.3 OHC. They already have 9.8 to 1 compression. they can be dialed in for what you want. They can be built up to have 11 to 1 Compression with just pistons if you want. The engines hold up to well over 500 hp. One of the easiest engines to work on. And have been known to last 600,000 miles.

Henry

[BioHazard]

One thing for some of you to explore is if your local power company offers a "time of use" billing plan. I'm switching over to this now, I used to pay $0.10/KWH 24/7, now I'm going to be paying about $0.125/KWH during peak hours and only 4.5 cents "off peak".

Basically my NG generator will run during the peak electrical price period, and store enough heat for 24 hours.

[BioHazard]

Would battery storage of energy be economically feasible with that kind of a cost discrepancy ?

I've thought about it, hard to say really when you add in the cost of the batteries. Batteries aren't as fun to play with as engines.

[mobile_bob]

i figure that if i can get a 2.5 cent spread, it is enough to cover the depreciation on a set of batteries

actually anything over 2 cents/kw/hr spread will cover the depreciation on most batteries.

i hadn't looked into the time of use plans, and i am not sure they are available in the small town i am moving to.

however i have looked at the different rates between commercial and residential natural gas, with commercial being about a third less than
residential, so maybe i can get that rate if i setup a business on the same property and put the cogen between the house and the shop?



also am looking into the rates for bulk cng to see how that might compare, having the bulk tank allows for buying off season when rates are lowest
that might be something that makes economic sense as well.

now if i can get the electric company to buy back at parity any power i can produce, that would eliminate the need for batteries all together.

bob g

[BioHazard]

also am looking into the rates for bulk cng to see how that might compare, having the bulk tank allows for buying off season when rates are lowest
that might be something that makes economic sense as well.

Wow, I didn't realize that was possible. Just how big a 'tank' are we talking and how much do those run? I want to setup my cogen so that it will run from NG or propane, having propane as the stored backup fuel.

I have *BRIEFLY* looked into cogeneration on an industrial scale...that is, start my own "power company" that sells electricity AND heat to the neighbors. I seem to remember bulk NG being only around $0.60/therm...except there was like a $500 monthly 'basic' charge. I've even considered partnering with the city sewer system for a source of "methane"....

[Chris]

I know this is off topic for this thread but with "exploring another option" I thought I would post anyway somewhere and this seemed to be the best option without starting a new thread.
My question is Does someone have a refference for SAE bellhousings and all that goes with it? IE a new idea is to get some junked engines for co gen. The Iron Duke and others. I can speak for the ole Volvo four banger that was in the 122, P1800 and was used for I/O stern drives. The engine is bullet proof if there ever was one.
So say I have one of these engines and want to driect drive it to a single bearing ST or other gen head. How do I figure out what I need. I know I need some sort of bell housing to fit between the engine and the gen. An adaptor plate that looks something like a clutch plate, but bolts onto the flywheel of the engine. It has some "Springs" similar to what is on a clutch plate and the gen head slides into it similar to what a gear box would do. So how do I figure out what to order? I think the whole confirguration is governed by SAE code/guideline or what ever. I think this would be a good reference for all of us.
"Who moved my cheese" GREAT book we should all read and if we have read it read it again.

Chris

[BioHazard]

Here's a thought...could you make an engine run on alcohol and/or natural gas? In the summer time you could use your waste heat to make your own moonshine. (denatured, of course ) Use waste products like bad fruit as a feed stock.

[TimSR2]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Lister-HR2-G-Industrial-Natural-Gas-Engine-Cores-/180448183293?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a038cc3fd#ht_500wt_1156

Lister HR2-G Industrial Natural Gas Engine Cores

How about this for a starting point?  With an air to water heat exchanger for the cogen, should be easy as these have very powerful cooling fans

[BioHazard]

What do you guys think about running an inline six engine on three cylinders, with the other 3 pistons and pushrods removed? The Jeep 4.0L would make a great candidate, it has the same bore as the 2.5L with a longer stroke. 3 cylinders would give you a roughly 100hp, 2 liter engine with seven main bearings, and, if you ever need to do a rebuild, you still have 3 cylinders that you haven't been using! I wonder how smooth it would run?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMC_Straight-6_engine#4.0
Not a cross flow head, but I tihnk some of the Ford sixes were? The first thing a 4.0L Jeep owner will tell you is how reliable it is.

[TimSR2]

Jeep 4.0 HO

An awesome all cast iron engine, with quite high compression, and  super common.  They are derived from  the Rambler 232, through the 258 Gremlin/Jeep engine,  and share cylinder head and port designs with the 2.5 liter 4.   They are unbelievably tough  ( I own one for the last 8 years, my wife's daily driver) Torque peak is about 1500 rpm .

But.... they are huge!  Great engine for building a chp  greenhouse operation off grid in the PNW... but way  too big for a house.  And we still have the problem of rpm control, unless we can adapt a governor system, hack into the ECM or go with alternator/battery/inverter system.

If we were talking about building a 30 kw 1800 rpm NG genset it would be top of the list.  But ike so many prospects the jeep 4.0 is way too large for a house size chp project. Now if we could cut off the back 4 cylinders and close up the block and head and get the flywheel back onto the crank, then maybe we'd have a winner.