how about some new boards?

[mobile_bob]

i am thinking that with the increased interest in cogen, we need to add a perhaps one or two more
boards to our forum.

perhaps a thermal mass storage board? that might be a useful place to discuss and assemble info on pex, slabs, pumps, tanks
and all the other stuff that relates to the storage/transport/ and use of the harvested heat of a cogen, solar heat source, or other
thermal heat source.

maybe another board for fireplaces/heaters/boilers/furnaces, that use all sorts of fuels such as wood, coal, oil, veggie, frog farts, etc.?

i know this forum is getting rather large in its number of boards, but it seems most folks have learned to deal with that and we seem to be collecting interest on the various topics from all sorts of folks.

i am also considering condensing the somrad section for a while, at least until we can get a better feel and feedback from the epa partnership.  it may well be that it will take several more months to get where we would like to be with that affiliation, and it may well be it will never be of any real benefit to our membership in any meaningful way.  time will tell it is supposed.

with our forum now just a couple months over its first birthday, and having over 16k posts and comments it looks like we are here to stay and our forum is becoming a useful resource along with being a great place to develop friendships.

so what do you guys think?  would another board or two be of use here on our forum?

bob g

[mbryner]

Well, what a coincidence.   That's what I've been working on this week: thermal mass storage tank.   I was going to start a thread on the copper coil heatex in the big thermal mass storage tank in the basement getting heated from the masonry stove.   Didn't know yet where to put it.   Having an appropriate board would be great.

Marcus

[vdubnut62]

I vote yes for thermal mass,or heat storage,or tanks,or  hydronics how to... especially for a hydronics board.
Is hydronics the correct word?
Ron

[sailawayrb]

Jens is correct, we apparently already have a Heat Exchanger/Thermal Storage board.  Maybe we should consider adding a few more sub-categories like Hydronic Floor Heating.  Maybe that's not even necessary.  I think the issue might be more the case that this board doesn't see a lot of action and some of us forget it even exists.  

I will need to design a 56' x 36' slab multi zone hydronic floor heating system in the not too distant future and I would welcome a spot to bounce ideas and share practical lessons learned, etc.  

I am also exploring the practicality of storing unused hydro power in DIY sodium acetate "heat batteries".  Think of scaling up the hand warmers that you can buy in stores that instantly transform from an ambient temp liquid state to a 130 deg F solid state.  In theory, these "heat batteries" could be cycled essentially forever by heating the solid state back to a liquid state...using hydro power that would otherwise be unused.  Long term 130 deg F heat storage could be accomplished at ambient temp without requiring any insulation or any supplemental heating.  130 deg F heat could be created instantly, easily and only when actually needed.  These "heat batteries" could be used to supplement the primary energy required for domestic water heating and hydronic floor heating.

Bob B.

[sailawayrb]

I vote yes for thermal mass,or heat storage,or tanks,or  hydronics how to... especially for a hydronics board.
Is hydronics the correct word?
Ron

Very correct!  I have been patiently waiting for several months for the new revision of "Modern Hydronic Heating: For Residential and Light Commercial Buildings", by John Siegenthaler to be released (now scheduled for Jan 2011).

Bob B.

[mobile_bob]

well if not a new board, then lets start a topic that covers the hydronic thing, and if there is any interest
perhaps another topic for masonary fireplace construction.

i want to develop the lower floor of this little house i bought, and want to put pex in the concrete slab and build
a massive russian type fireplace that is centered in the house,

in the winter i want to use the fireplace to heat of course normally, but also circulate heat from the thermal mass of the
fireplace into the thermal mass of the floor as well.

in the summer months i want to circulate the water from both thermal masses outside into a cooling tower at night
when the wet bulb temperature is at its lowest, the goal being to cool bother interior thermal masses as low as i can drive
them,

then close up the place during the heat of the day and let both thermal masses absorb the heat inside the house and moderate
the ambient temperatures.

i too would like a thread/board/topic or whatever to explore and discuss issues related to this segment of the project.

guess i will look into how best to incorporate this topic in a way that makes it fit well with what we are otherwise doing.

bob g

[vdubnut62]

in the summer months i want to circulate the water from both thermal masses outside into a cooling tower at night
when the wet bulb temperature is at its lowest, the goal being to cool bother interior thermal masses as low as i can drive
them,

then close up the place during the heat of the day and let both thermal masses absorb the heat inside the house and moderate
the ambient temperatures.

You just might make that fly in Kansas, but here in the Land Of Humidity, that would sure be a damp moldy mess!
Ron

[Crofter]

Hey Bob, you got the helm!
Material is more easily searchable if it has a comprehensive category but on the other hand if you get too many categories then you need a master cross reference. People who are skilled at doing a searches have no problem getting to what they are interested in but I am not sure how common that skill is. Many like everything in one big bowl that they can peruse to see what interests them. I dont really know which way potentially enables the most learning. On sites that are sponsored by adds etc., hit counts are important and there are strategists who make this whole thing into a science.

In any case I am sure that many here are interested in and will have to deal with heat transfer and storage. It is easy to get enamored with an idea and get sloppy with the cost benefit analysis  as well as the logistics of actually accomplishing it. There are lots of pitfalls in having liquids in pipes in concrete or masonry structures. Heat cycling cracks in high temperature flue liners are a fact of life too and getting back in at a potenial blockage is something to keep in mind. You are old enough to have developed a health degree of skepticism I know, but it is good to keep in mind that some forums have a well sorted bunch of info that supports the industry of the main sponsors; Sometimes kind of spotty on any ideas that don't shine a pleasing light on an issue. I think this forum does a pretty good job of kicking around the good, the bad, and the ugly when issues get discussed. Sounds like it could be a fun topic.

[sailawayrb]

i want to develop the lower floor of this little house i bought, and want to put pex in the concrete slab and build
a massive russian type fireplace that is centered in the house,

in the winter i want to use the fireplace to heat of course normally, but also circulate heat from the thermal mass of the fireplace into the thermal mass of the floor as well. otherwise doing.

Hey, Bob...the book for you is "Masonry Heaters - Designing, Building, and Living with a Piece of the Sun", by Ken Matesz, Copyright August 2010.  Suggest that you also take a good look at some of the premanufactured core kits such as Albie-Core, Heat-Kit, Temp Cast, Crossfire, Biofire, Envirotech, Helios, Tulikivi.

My favorites, in order of preference, are Environtech, Temp Cast, and Helios.

http://www.empiremasonryheaters.com/index.html

http://www.tempcast.com/index.html

I don't know how practical it is to heat water using masonry heaters because of the short burn times (only about 1.5 hours per day if house/heater are properly BTU sized).  It also seems like there are plenty of stories about folks not being happy about going this route because of inadequate water heating and premature core cracking.  Something to research for sure.

Bob B.

[mobile_bob]

my thinking was not so much heating the water, but spreading the heat from the central thermal  mass (fireplace) to the secondary
thermal mass (floor slab)

it will be a bold experiment following my experience with thermal floor space cooling (passive) in a rental house i once lived in.
it had a garage on the east side that was about the same square footage as the living area, if i opened the garage door at night
and let the slab cool, i could then close it up at about 2am, the living space also had all the window opened to get as much heat out
as possible during this time.

i would then close up everything at about 6 am, and open the door between the garage and the living space, it was centrally located
inbetween the two spaces,  i could then keep the place from rising above ~80 degree's F at the peak of the day which was about 5pm.

while 80 degree's is not comfortable, it is much more so than the nearly 100F outside temps and the blazing western afternoon sun exposure.

actually i was amazed at how well it worked overall,

i am convinced with enough thermal mass, if i can get it cooled to ~ 60degree's F with a cooling tower (which is attainable) i can moderate the interior temps to a temp rise of certainly no more than 80 degree's F and perhaps a few degree's lower as the house
in question looses its afternoon sun exposure at about 4 pm during the summer months.

the problem as alluded to will be humidity, it is likely there will some condensation issues, so i might have to incorporate some means of dehumidifying which i am leaning toward a dessicant (sp) that can be batch fired dried with the heat from the cogen perhaps?

or maybe some method of absorption with plants, or some combination of other passive means.

the cooling aspect of the project interests me, as it does get hot in kansas in the summer time, however
it also gets colder than a witches boob in a brass bra in the winter as well, so whatever i do has to also work for heating.

perhaps the best approach would be something to aid the process, and not try to design for 100% , but rather accept the reality that it might not be 100% and require a bit of help from something like the forced air furnace to supplement the heating and the same to supplement the cooling via the AC system?

i figure anything i do ought to help reduce the heating and cooling load covered by the utility connected systems?

bob g

[vdubnut62]

it also gets colder than a witches boob in a brass bra in the winter

... and exactly how cold is that in layman's terms ?

Make a smartass remark to your significant other about her butt being too fat, and then you will know exactly how cold.
Although it will be in non-laid man's terms.

Sorry, I tried to stop, but it was impossible...........
Ron

[mbryner]

hahahahahaha 

And people wonder why we don't have women on this forum.

On masonry stoves:  we have a "heatkit", but we also looked at "tempcast".   Didn't know about "Environtech".   Thanks sailawayrb.

[mobile_bob]

i should be more politically correct, we do have a couple women members, and if i have offended any
of theirs or anyone else's sensibilities, please accept my apologies



my point is, kansas can get down right cold in the dead of winter when the winds kick up.

perhaps i should have put it another way

how about this...

"cold enough to neuter a polar bear"

(for those of us that are peta members, sorry)



bob g

[Randybee1]

So this is great.. looks like we have a new board... to discuss new boards! 

Randy B

[Crofter]

The heck with PETA! If Bob is going to have a polar bear in his basement I think he should neuter it!