Diesel engine bans

[BioHazard]

Probably a stupid question, but can somebody explain to me exactly why new listeroids and Changfas are banned from importation into the US? I know the EPA doesn't like them, is it just because they are too old technology and therefore too dirty? What about all the chinese air cooled diesel engines that still seem to be allowed, or for that matter non chinese diesels like Kubota and Yanmar? Why are they allowed?

Is there any possible way to bring a listeroid into emissions compliance? Catalytic converter followed by a solid unobtainium exhaust filter? No?

For that matter, when does "iron" become an "engine"? I know I can still import lister parts. Cranks, pistons, bearings, etc, right? What about a shortblock? What prevents me from buying each peice individually and assembling my own?

[Randybee1]

What prevents me from buying each peice individually and assembling my own?

Nothing... yet! But if the EPA has banned Lister's, then the next logical step for them would be to ban the importation of parts..might take them a few years to figure that out, then again maybe they'll never ban the importation of parts because I'm sure they have bigger fish to fry!

Randy B.

[cgwymp]

I'm strictly speculating here, I would guess it has to do with having the engines emissions certified. Yanmar et al have probably paid to have their engines tested and shown to be in compliance (which I'm sure would be an expensive undertaking). I doubt this would ever happen with Listeroids because of the plethora of manufacturers/assemblers and the small size of the market -- the cost of having the engines certified would never be recouped, and each manufacturer/assembler who wanted to sell here would have to go through the same process. So trying to sell here would be too unprofitable to go through the effort of certification, even if the engines could pass the tests....

Anyway, that's my guess unless someone comes up with a better explanation! ;-)

[Apogee]

Search this and the Lister Engine Forum for thread on this topic.

Seems to me it was going to cost well in excess of $50K to get one model certified.  Then there is the huge yearly rip off fee to be allowed to keep importing them...

No way it's going to happen.

Steve

[Henry W]

That is exactly what Mike Monteth went through. After going through all testing by himself and getting the GM-90 to pass tier-2 emissions the EPA wanted to have him send an or two engine and over $30,000.

That would have me put the breaks on also.

Henry

[vdubnut62]

Sometimes, not in all cases, but just sometimes, I wish Jimmy Carter had the EPA shoved up his .......     Sideways.
Ron

[cgwymp]

[Donning flameproof suit] I actually like what the EPA is intended to do and I think we need it. I like clean air, I like clean water, I like clean soil. There are far too many examples of people & companies who would gladly despoil everything in sight if they could make a buck by doing it. We need regulation and enforcement to make sure that doesn't happen.

The problem I think is that, like everything else in government it seems, there have been too many special interests over the years that have perverted the original intent trying to tilt the system in their own favor. Suppose for instance that you were a large corporation that manufactured small Diesel engines. If you could buy lobby for legislation stating that all Diesel engine manufactures had to submit to a battery of expensive tests and recertifications in order to sell engines, you would in effect be buying legislation that preferentially damages your smaller competitors. I'm not saying this is what happened, but it wouldn't surprise me....

[XYZER]

I actually like what the EPA is intended to do and I think we need it. I like clean air, I like clean water, I like clean soil.

I agree they have there place......but I do not believe the elimination of imported "Listeroids" will save our ass. IMO more polution is caused by the importing DEQ approved plastic crap from China that ends up in our landfills about a week after we buy it.

[cgwymp]

I actually like what the EPA is intended to do and I think we need it. I like clean air, I like clean water, I like clean soil.

I agree they have there place......but I do not believe the elimination of imported "Listeroids" will save our ass.

No, but if (to use some names at random) Kohler could gain a competitive advantage against Yanmar by getting legislation passed that favors their engines over Yanmar's, so what if the byproduct is that the Listeroid trade is stopped? No one (who matters) cares.... It's not about whose ass gets saved, it's about whose bottom line gets padded. And that IMO is the main problem.

IMO more polution is caused by the importing DEQ approved plastic crap from China that ends up in our landfills about a week after we buy it.

No argument here!

[cognos]

Legislation that bans the importation or use of these types of engines ends up getting passed because it's easy, and looks good politically. Ask me how I know...

Whoever got this initiative passed knew full well that the number of people affected, and the amount of commerce actually involved was less than miniscule, and would present them with no problems politically. In other words, it looks like something positive is being done (and if truth be told, it is), and the number of voters inconvenienced is negligible.

Having said that, positive environmental change has to be driven by legislation, or it simply wouldn't happen, that's been shown to be true time and again.

It's just the thin end of the wedge we see with these engines, emissions controls and efficiency demands on all engines will continue to tighten, we're just seeing it from the bottom up.

It does seem unfair sometimes. They ban some diesel engines that won't pass very strict emissions testing, but they allow NASCAR to run leaded fuel right up to 2009... and as far as I know, even in 2010 they ain't no cats on them thar cores... wonder how many thousands of pounds of crap has been spewed by those engines over the years in the name of entertainment?

And ya, plastic junk ending up in landfills - as the oil supply shrinks every day - does seem pretty stupid... but we have no one to blame for that but ourselves. If we'd quit buying it, they'd stop selling it - simple as that.

[mobile_bob]

well hopefully cooler heads will prevail in a couple years, the demands for ever cleaner exhaust is getting beyond the economic viability
of nearly all small engine producers, and certainly way beyond what the end user will want to pay.

when it comes down to a 6hp engine having to have a cat, urea injection, computer controlled injection and a price tag
of over 5k dollars,, i really wonder how many folks will put up with that?

i still say that if the government(s) confiscated every single small diesel engine on the north american continent, every changfa, every listeroid, every petteroid and ever other little single cylinder diesel used for whatever purpose and dumped them into the melting vat.. the end result as it relates to a cleaner environment would not even be measurable or quantifiable, at least certainly within the margin of error on any of their test equipment.

the epa doesn't really believe these small engines are a problem, if they did think that they were they damn sure would be all over
working closely with any group that was working with these engines in an effort to use them in as clean a manner as possible.

this clearly is not the case, ask me how i know!

we and our little engine's are just so much collateral damage in the machine of politics

bob g

[XYZER]

i still say that if the government(s) confiscated every single small diesel engine on the north american continent, every changfa, every listeroid, every petteroid and ever other little single cylinder diesel used for whatever purpose and dumped them into the melting vat.. the end result as it relates to a cleaner environment would not even be measurable or quantifiable, at least certainly within the margin of error on any of their test equipment.

Transporting then melting them down would probably create more polution than all of them running!

we and our little engine's are just so much collateral damage in the machine of politics
bob g

Yep!

[vdubnut62]

Sometimes, not in all cases, but just sometimes, I wish Jimmy Carter had the EPA shoved up his .......     Sideways.
Ron

I didn't mean to imply that I don't like clean air and water!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Sorry if I gave that impression.
So don't look for the flame proof suit yet cgwymp, my old country butt ain't out to burn nobody.

I have a small place up on the Cumberland Plateau here in TN that has been in the family for probably 150 years give or take. It is a perfectly gorgeous place that has 100 year old Hemlock trees Oak, Hickory, Poplar and even the occasional American Chestnut, yes there are still surviving examples of them in Appalachia.
My property borders a beautiful small river called the Obey (pronounced obee) that once was filled with trout, bass, bluegill and
"minners" as my Grandad called them, and huge bullfrogs etc. I was raised on this place and I love it very dearly.
Back in the 40's a coal mine flooded and overflowed, killing that river in the space of 3 days. No plants or animal life left.
The damage that was done could have been averted by the proper application of EPA protocols, but no EPA existed then.
Remediation measures are in place now, but may be too little too late, I'm not educated well enough in these matters to be
able to forecast that possibility.
I just hope to live long enough to be able to take my Grandchildren or maybe Great Grandchildren fishing in that river.
It has been said that time heals all wounds, I wonder.....

No, I am not an enemy of the EPA.  I just wish that some common sense and checks and balances had gone into the creation of what has become a Political Monster that is for sale to the highest bidder.
Sorry, end of rant.
Ron

[AdeV]

It does seem unfair sometimes. They ban some diesel engines that won't pass very strict emissions testing, but they allow NASCAR to run leaded fuel right up to 2009... and as far as I know, even in 2010 they ain't no cats on them thar cores... wonder how many thousands of pounds of crap has been spewed by those engines over the years in the name of entertainment?

I thought Nascar ran on methanol? Certainly Indycars do. That's why every now & then you see everyone leap 10ft sideways, for no apparent reason (fuel fire - but a methanol fire is almost invisible, especially to TV cameras).

And ya, plastic junk ending up in landfills - as the oil supply shrinks every day - does seem pretty stupid... but we have no one to blame for that but ourselves. If we'd quit buying it, they'd stop selling it - simple as that.

The problem is labour - specifically, its cost. Labour in China (or Vietnam, or whichever country is currently in vogue) is thousands of times cheaper than it is in the US or UK or Europe. So, the so-called "developed" nations simply cannot compete on price. And, since we want everything as cheap as possible (or, in some cases, just plain affordable), so the Far East will always win out... until they, too, are fully industrialised and "developed"; by then, the US & Europe will probably look like the poverty-stricken countries, and we'll end up making stuff for the Chinese...

[vdubnut62]

No AdeV,  NASCAR runs on good 'ol racing gas. No methanol there. Why, the boys would have to make too many pitstops for fuel,
and the current fuel sponsor couldn't advertise "The Official Fuel Of Nascar" on the stations/pumps.
Nascar is a joke now anyway, cookie cutter cars with different stickers on them built on cookie cutter frames..... It's not Stock Car Racing anymore. I gave up on it years ago.
Ron