Rocker failure

[Lloyd]

Hi Jens,

NO...that's what the time delay function built into the relay is for...It holds the pass through power contact closed until the desired time passes, then it opens. It's a thermal switch that is built into the relay. iirc right Idec makes it in an 8 pin octagon with the base separate, the base has screw terminals, and the relay plugs into the base.

When my brother built his house, the hydronic installers wired up the 8 zone circ pumps to run continuous, and said it would be thousands of dollars to build a controller that didn't allow the pumps to run when there was no demand from the zone. I built a din-rail controller using the time-delays each tied to the t-stat for each zone. I think it cost about $300.00 in parts, I installed it 10 years ago and it has saved about $189.00 a year in less wasted energy, it extends the pump life by about 10 time a 24/7 life span...With labor I think he figgered it amortized in about 2.75 yeas and saved thousands over the life of the system.

Lloyd

Lloyd

[sailawayrb]

When my brother built his house, the hydronic installers wired up the 8 zone circ pumps to run continuous, and said it would be thousands of dollars to build a controller that didn't allow the pumps to run when there was no demand from the zone. I built a din-rail controller using the time-delays each tied to the t-stat for each zone. I think it cost about $300.00 in parts, I installed it 10 years ago and it has saved about $189.00 a year in less wasted energy, it extends the pump life by about 10 time a 24/7 life span...With labor I think he figgered it amortized in about 2.75 yeas and saved thousands over the life of the system.

Hi Lloyd,

Sounds like you have good knowledge about hydronic floor heating and associated control systems.  I'm looking for a good hydronic design book or other source of design info.  I have been patiently waiting for several months for the new revision of "Modern Hydronic Heating: For Residential and Light Commercial Buildings", by John Siegenthaler to be released (now scheduled for Jan 2011).  I don't want to hijack this thread so maybe starting another thread would be best.  Or perhaps even creating a hydronic section since storing heat in slab floor is another way to store/use thermal energy from a cogen application.

Thanks,
Bob B.

[Tom T]

If I remember right you attach one wire from the cap to the line side of the coil and the other to ground after the power is dropped however long it takes the cap to drain off is how long the relay is held closed  if you need more time a larger cap is used if less a smaller one. Its called a capacitor discharge timer. Its been a long time and that may not be quiet right.Tom T

[Lloyd]

Jen's & Tom,

They are not caps, but thermal switches...they are factory set and you buy the the relay with the time delay period you want. They aren't adjustable...they are pre-set by the factory.

They are used for everything from cool down boilers to pre-heaters in industry.

But I think they would be an ideal solution to your head boiling...no head wrap/rapping required.

Lloyd

[Lloyd]

When my brother built his house, the hydronic installers wired up the 8 zone circ pumps to run continuous, and said it would be thousands of dollars to build a controller that didn't allow the pumps to run when there was no demand from the zone. I built a din-rail controller using the time-delays each tied to the t-stat for each zone. I think it cost about $300.00 in parts, I installed it 10 years ago and it has saved about $189.00 a year in less wasted energy, it extends the pump life by about 10 time a 24/7 life span...With labor I think he figgered it amortized in about 2.75 yeas and saved thousands over the life of the system.

Hi Lloyd,

Sounds like you have good knowledge about hydronic floor heating and associated control systems.  I'm looking for a good hydronic design book or other source of design info.  I have been patiently waiting for several months for the new revision of "Modern Hydronic Heating: For Residential and Light Commercial Buildings", by John Siegenthaler to be released (now scheduled for Jan 2011).  I don't want to hijack this thread so maybe starting another thread would be best.  Or perhaps even creating a hydronic section since storing heat in slab floor is another way to store/use thermal energy from a cogen application.

Thanks,
Bob B.

Hi Bob....

I'm not an engineer. My formal edu.  is in Fiance and Commercial Photography...2 careers, no mid life crisis... When I visited my brothers install and saw that the circs were running 24/7 I said that is a huge waste of energy...he contacted his contractor, and they said nothing on the shelf...but it could be custom ER'd for thousands....I said BS...it just as simple as having 8 gremlins standing by to through the switches...when the t-stat says no more heat for this zone.

So I did  a little research based on some past experience with relays...and guess what...it was an easy solution..... I think the installers were so concerned with selling a system, and once it was installed they had little interest in making a more efficient product...bc they could earn no more.

Slabs are the original heat sink used in condensing boilers...since the 70's energy crisis...anything with a large mass, that is fairly dense will do it. Some mediums just work better. I began researching using salt back in the 70's, and it is a very fine medium, if you can contain the corrosive factor.

I was an early adopter in the 70's but like many, as the econ.... got better.... life's other choices got in the way...that's where I think big gov. should provide the leadership....but they too are lured by easy money.

O well I think community is where it's at now...like our little micro-cogen site, and like America was before the day of liberaly providing for our politicians theifdoms...I won't digress any further....really

lloyd

[bschwartz]

   "I am remembering why I felt like a stationary engineer before ....."

Is that because you feel like you aren't getting anywhere ? 

[Horsepoor]

A cheap fix might be the most inexpensive UPS Walmat or Office Depot sells, plug your circulating pump into the UPS which pulls power from the generator while running and will power the circulating pump for a few minutes after the generator shuts down or until you manually turn the pump off. Cheap, simple, off the shelf, perhaps $20.

[Thob]

I think I'd run the circulating pump off reliable AC and use a thermal switch on the head - above some temperature the pump runs; once it cools off the pump stops.

I also wonder if the reason you see leaking after it shuts off is that steam will go thru a smaller hole than water will.  Not so much a pressure going up and pushing thru but steam (gas) goes thru a leak that water (liquid) won't.

[sailawayrb]

Hi Bob....

I'm not an engineer. My formal edu.  is in Fiance and Commercial Photography...2 careers, no mid life crisis... When I visited my brothers install and saw that the circs were running 24/7 I said that is a huge waste of energy...he contacted his contractor, and they said nothing on the shelf...but it could be custom ER'd for thousands....I said BS...it just as simple as having 8 gremlins standing by to through the switches...when the t-stat says no more heat for this zone.

So I did  a little research based on some past experience with relays...and guess what...it was an easy solution..... I think the installers were so concerned with selling a system, and once it was installed they had little interest in making a more efficient product...bc they could earn no more.

Slabs are the original heat sink used in condensing boilers...since the 70's energy crisis...anything with a large mass, that is fairly dense will do it. Some mediums just work better. I began researching using salt back in the 70's, and it is a very fine medium, if you can contain the corrosive factor.

I was an early adopter in the 70's but like many, as the econ.... got better.... life's other choices got in the way...that's where I think big gov. should provide the leadership....but they too are lured by easy money.

O well I think community is where it's at now...like our little micro-cogen site, and like America was before the day of liberaly providing for our politicians theifdoms...I won't digress any further....really

lloyd

Hi Lloyd,

Somehow I missed your response...

I now have "Modern Hydronic Heating: For Residential and Light Commercial Buildings", by John Siegenthaler.  I also have his associated software applications as well.  All truly great stuff if one wants to do hydronic...and I very much do...and passive solar too!

I won't digress further either...but I agree 100% with your digression  

Bob B.