Oil level an oil usage

[Jens]

I think I asked this question before but never did get a reply ....

How much oil do you put in your Listeroid ?  The one and only reference I found is one fellow suggesting to fill the crankcase just below the castle nuts on the big end. Basically as much as you can fit in while keeping the crank and big end out of the oil. This seems to correspond to the full mark on my dipstick.

I have also read that having too much oil in the crankcase can overwhelm the oil rings causing oil to get burned.

In the previous incarnation of Thumper, the engine burned a lot of oil with a full crankcase which is why I tended to run the oil level a bit lower and eventually what caused the failure. Well, here we are, Thumper V2.0 and we have the same oil burning issue. It seems I am burning about a quart per 5 hrs of run time (best guess).

With pretty much all the guts inside being new, I would like to understand what would cause one engine to burn oil and another not being affected (apparently burning oil is not common).

I assume some of the oil burning is caused by rings not fully seated (new) - how much of the oil burning is likely to be caused by this and how long can oil consumption be attributed to non-seated rings ?

[Tom Reed]

I also fill to just below the bottom of the crank, which shows about the 2/3rd mark on the dip stick. The engine does not need any additional oil between  changes, in fact the level doesn't even change. It's running 150 to 200 hrs per year and the oil gets changed at the beginning of "generator" season.

[billswan]

Jens

I also fill to the same point you mentioned but my single has never been an oil user. But as a single it probably has more crankcase vacuum than a twin. My fuel pump does weep some out the bottom and my guess that seepage gets by the lifter and ends up in the crankcase so maybe that is topping up the crankcase level. I use about 85% oil to diesel so the fuel is mostly oil of one type or another. I will say that when I change oil at 200+ hours that stuff is some of the blackest crap I have ever seen and I don't have the guts to even try to use it as fuel for the roid.........

Billswan

[wagspe208]

I know nothing about listers, but oil comsumption is a function of ring condition. Either improper cylinder finish for ring, poor quality ring, etc.
Or poor quality machine work.
It is normal for a "new" rebuild to use a little oil. By this I mean a car engine when fresh will use 1qt or so in the first 3000 miles, then uses none.
What type ring is in the piece? What was the cylinder condition? Fresh bore and hone, hone only, ball hone thing, taper, etc.
Wags

[veggie]

1/2" below my oil fill/inspection port.
This puts my dipper about 1/3 submerged.

veggie

[wagspe208]

Wags, both cylinders have new rings and new sleeves. I did not re-hone the new sleeves as they looked to have an excellent factory cross hatch on them.

Did you buy the rings/ sleeves as a kit? From the same place?
Did you put oil on the cylinders/ then install the pistons?
How much run time is on the piece? Loaded, or just running?
Wags

[vdubnut62]

Jens, did you check to see if the machine shop guys put the rings on the right way? They do have a top and bottom side, and it does matter. Also, I once purchased a very expensive set of pistons and liners that looked beautiful, the rings were on the pistons and the pistons were installed in the liners. A very old friend told me to take them all apart, he said "do not trust anything that you don't see with your own eyes".  Turned out that the ring gaps were all lined up just as straight and pretty....
FWIW.
Ron

[Ronmar]

1/2" below my oil fill/inspection port.
This puts my dipper about 1/3 submerged.

veggie

Mine is about the same on my 6/1.  That is the point where the pump maintains the oil level in the upper sump.  Any more runs over the lip and down into the lower sump.  I have probably lost more oil taking video of the insides than I have burn't:)

[wagspe208]

Ah... I'd sync the cylinders.... or whatever it is called. Load it and run it. I am sure it will be fine. 8 hours is not much for a diesel for "break in" expecially depending on ring type/ hone surface finish.
You could run it at no load until the cows come home and not seat the rings. They like to be loaded.
What I am saying is... don't worry. Balance cyls. Run it.
Wags

[mbryner]

Man Jens, that's a lot of oil in only 5 hours!   Maybe loading it and running it will seat the rings better.   My 6/1 used less than a quart in over 250 hours, including the break-in period.  Then again, I'm the one with the trashed big end bearings, so don't listen to anything I say....

[mobile_bob]

don't put a crankcase hose to the intake manifold
i don't know if your engine can vacuum oil up and through the engine, but i do know
the epa compliant briggs and stratton engines can sure do so,

i lost an engine with 5 hours run time on it due to air cleaner restriction providing just enough vacuum between the aircleaner
and the throttle plate, it vacated the crankcase of oil in just about 5 minute of run time.

if you want to route the hose to the intake, put it outside the filter element

it probably doesn't take much to suck up a drop or two at a time, before long you lose a quart

a quart in the lister is concerning, a quart to a 5hp briggs is a disaster on the proportions of what Marcus had happen.

bob g

[Apogee]

Jens,

I second Mobile Bob's opinion.

Get rid of the vacuum line or re-route it.

That is way too much oil for you to be burning.

That line would explain it.

Also, make sure to check your crankcase breather to make sure it's not painted shut.  You shouldn't need that vacuum line if everything is working correctly.

Just my $.02,

Steve

[XYZER]

Jens,
Does yours have the standard check valve type breather mounted on front of the inspection cover? Was the breather hose an add on from factory? If you added a hose why?
Dave

[Ronmar]

The twins don't self vacume as well as the singles.  But if you are getting pressure pulses out of the case breather, the check valve there should keep the case under a slight vacume and keep it from weeping at all the seals and fittings.  If you have a housing around your air filter, plumbing he line there should creat enough vacume to take care of the vapors(re-burn them) without vacuming oil. 

Get a load on it.  You have essentially a new engine that needs broke-in, and diesels like their loads.  You are probably slobbering a lot of oil into the exhaust because the rings are not seated.  A load should get them seated and sealing properly. 

I recall MagicJack talking about oil level in his singles, and that if he ran the oil much above a certain point on the dipper, the engine would quickly slobber/burn the oil back down to the sweet spot on the dipper.

[Horsepoor]

I am also running a 20 HP twin (GTC) down rated to 850 rpm. The below measurements were taken in 2008 as I was fine tuning my setup.  

Initial setting 62 Hz @ no load, increased load slowly until I was pulling 47.3 amps at 230 volts, slowing bouncing between 58 to 57 hz. I calculate 10,879 watts at this load which I held for more than 20 minutes while I measured temperatures on the exhaust system and radiator. Maximum heat on the exhaust system was 655 F right side and 635 on the left. Fuel used - waste jet fuel. Black smoke very noticable. The cooling system had a maximum of 215 F at the outgoing flow with some visible boiling in the 50% coolant mix as it entered the flexible tubing in a 5 psi pressure system. The return was 170 F for a consistent 40 F temperturn drop. This 40 F drop was even present at lighter loads.

Conclusions back in 2008: Could have pushed for a little more power out of the engine but I would have had to cheat by opening the fuel racks to 100% by hand. I can truthful state 11 kw is possible but I really dont want to run it this hard for very long. The system lives a very happy life at 25 to 35 amps at around 230 volts for 6,000 to 9,000 watts. It runs both of my central air-conditioners (one 2 ton down stairs and one 2 1/2 ton upstairs), assorted lights, 5000 BTU window air conditioner, frig(s), well pump, etc. I am extremely pleased.

It has taken me almost two years to reach this point starting with cleaning all that casting sand out of the engine, re-machining parts, building the stand, refining the cooling system, finally finding the correct spring, breaking it in (about 20 hrs) so the rings are pretty well seated, rotating tappets, etc. I am so please with the Lister engine design, this must be the adult replacement for the little pill steam engine I never received as a child.

Now in Oct 2010 I've got everything broken in and have pushed this engine out to 11,200 watts under maximum load, black smoke, frequency dropping to 57 hz, etc, for a minute just to see what the upper limit is. I believe 10 KW is my realistic limit. I'll attach a Youtube link. You'll notice the triple redundancy in the cooling system, 18 gallons of liquid, I have a very blond wife and must go away to work when hurricanes strike for at least 12 to 14 hours at a time. I am hoping it will take longer to cook the engine if a failure occurs.

http://www.youtube.com/user/rocketboy911#p/u/3/3HYakTZnypA

Now that my engine has about 200 hours on it, oil burning is not a problem.