Cooling with radiator gone wrong

[Jedon]

Bruce: I know the temp sensor won't work there I was just using it to plug the fill hole since I didn't have a 1" cap handy. The fan is turned on by a loose nut ( me :-D )

The radiator is mounted with the overflow nipple on the bottom because that is how it was in the car and I am unsure if the radiator will function correctly upside down.

[XYZER]

I see no way to get the air out of the top of the radiator. There must be a vent or expansion overflow on the top of the radiator. The radiator doesn't care how it is arranged especially with a circulating pump. Even with the high temp sensor tube it won't get the air out of the top portion of the radiator.

[BruceM]

I had to mount my radiator sideways to turn it into a "vertical flow" radiator, then had to solder an air bleed fitting (hose barb) on the highest spot. 

XYZer is right (no surprise there), you probably have air in the rad.

[Ronmar]

Bruce: I know the temp sensor won't work there I was just using it to plug the fill hole since I didn't have a 1" cap handy. The fan is turned on by a loose nut ( me :-D )

The radiator is mounted with the overflow nipple on the bottom because that is how it was in the car and I am unsure if the radiator will function correctly upside down.

Overflow connection to the bottom of the radiator would have been a bad combination for a car also I would think.  You have to be able to purge any air from the highest point in the system.  The overflow tank is usually attached near the radiator cap to catch the overflow when the radiator cap reaches pressure and vents air or coolant.  The radiator cap is usually located at the highest point in the system on top of a short neck so it can trap and discharge any air that makes it to this high point.

I have put body lifts on several toyota pickups.  On all of these, I have added a flush port "T" fitting(2 hose barb ends and a capped garden hose fitting) pointing upward to the upper most heater hose back along the firewall.  Raising the body 3" makes that the highest point in the system instead of the top of the radiator.  Without that port, it is difficult to get all the air out of the system if you drain the coolant.  With the "T" fitting in place, purging air is a snap.

That radiator will work in any orientation as long as the pump is moving fluid, and all the air is purged out of any high points.  There should be only one high point, and that is where the overflow should be attached.  Flip the radiator over so that drain port is the high point in the system connected upward to the expansion tank,  and it should work fine.

Here is a pic of my heat exchanger plumbing.  That green painted elbow has a hose barb welded into the top of it, and is the highest point in the system.  The red hose runs upward from there to the bottom of the expansion tank.   

[Jedon]

I flipped the radiator upside down, cut the hoses a bit, removed the filler neck to the temp gauge and made sure the radiator was level and could filter out air.
It worked! Now if I have the fan on even low it stays way too cold ( 150F ), without the fan it was staying at 170F.
Then the water pump failed 
There was a squealing but I wasn't sure where it was coming from. After running for a few hours I came to check on it and the little screw valve on top of the water pump was missing and there was steam coming out of it.

Short video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF2MtaupaTI
Longer Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o55T1ECqSUw

So what now? Just remove the pump? Fix it? Get an electric pump?
Thanks!
-Jedon

[XYZER]

So what now? Just remove the pump? Fix it? Get an electric pump?
Thanks!
-Jedon

Jedon,.......
Is the plug to bleed air out of the top half of the pump?

If it were me I would loose the pump. It is one of those mechanical things that will fail when you really need it. With a good thermo siphon system there is nothing to break and it will free up a small amount of energy. You have a nice shed to house your power plant and I would model my cooling system like this

Mine are basically like this and are non-pressurized. I also have a thermostat installed to maintain a constant temperature. The large reservoir will help keep plenty of coolant available to cover any evaporation problems.....good luck!
Dave

[Ronmar]

What Dave said!  Thermosiphon works great, and once setup, dosn't break as it is powered by gravity:)  You just need a smooth/straight path upward from the head to the top of the radiator, and a smooth path downward from the bottom of the rad to the cylinder inlet.  As water heats in the engine it rises to the radiator. As it cools in the radiator it falls back to the engine.  It is that simple.

The tank in Dave's diagram insures that the path from the engine outlet to the top of the radiator is always underwater as it must be to operate properly... 

[quinnf]

Regarding the water pump, a wise man* once said, "If it isn't part of the design, it doesn't fail."   And, "Remember if the water pump is not there, it can't fail when you need the engine most."**  That's the beauty of these engines, that sourpuss Bob notwithstanding.  Splash lubed (no oil pump), crank started (no starter), and thermosiphon cooled (no water pump).

Quinn

*http://www.utterpower.com/hard-lessons.htm
**http://www.utterpower.com/cooling.htm

[mobile_bob]

awe patewwwieeeee



you guys and your KISS geeeesh

you would think that all pumps are bad???

maybe y'alls using bad pumps?

ok, to be fair,

there is nothing wrong with splash lube, and thermosiphon, and a handcrank
but geeesh, thank god all these things have been addressed successfully by other oem's
or we would all be having a hell of a time getting the old tin lizzy fired up to go to and from work
each day.

actually if i were to be running a 6/1 i would go with thermosiphon too, the power density is so low
that there is really no need for pumps unless you cannot have your tank or radiator mounted properly
to enable thermosiphon to work properly.

thermosiphon on the other hand is not good enough for a high output changfa, you get too many hot spots
and overheat problems because of poor flow into important parts like the head passage. this is where a pump
really shines and pays its freight.

bob g

[Henry W]

The S195 puts out a fair amount of heat when running a heavy load. I also feel the need of a water pump.

My wife's 1993 240 Volvo wagon that has almost 290,000 miles and my 1993 Volvo 240 Sedan with 280,000 + miles only had one water pump each replaced since new. I have no bad thoughts about running a good water pump.

Henry

[quinnf]

Well then, that explains it!

You obviouslyl never had a late '60s Ford 289 or 302.  Water pump pulley had I think three belts hanging off of it for the alternator, power steering and smog pumps.  Crappy design, as was the decision to use the C4 tranny on a V-8, and the underbuilt steering and suspension on Mustangs.  But I won't go there.  Power came off the crankshaft pulley, so all the load was downward and cantilevered about 6" out from the bearing.  To make matters worse, the front water pump bearing also bore the load of the cooling fan sticking even farther out on the shaft.  And they didn't bother to balance those things then.  So after about 20,000 miles, the bearing would oval, then the seal would go and coolant would start dripping out the relief hole in the bottom of the pump.  When I was working in the autoparts store coustomers would come in wanting  "that little plug that goes in the hole on the bottom of the water pump.  It fell out."  When I explained the purpose of the hole, I got called all sorts of things.  Told them to go back and check for themselves.  That hole ain't threaded and can't take a screw. 

Anyway, I know that has nothing to do with these engines, and in those days Ford didn't build cars like Volvo did.  But given a simple solution to a simple problem, and one that takes an engineered solution, I'll take the simple one any day. 

Bob's right, though, for a short legged engine that's huffing and puffing to keep up with its power demands, and especially one that was never intended to be cooled by anything other than a hopper, a water pump makes more sense. 

Quinn

[vdubnut62]

Will some body tell this dumb hillbilly how a Changfa can get too hot when converted from hopper cooled?
I thought they cooled by boiling the water in the hopper, so.... even in a closed system the whole darn thing is underwater anyway??
And if it boils won't the vapor rise to be replaced by liquid?
All right, now go ahead and tell me what law of physics or thermodynamics / fluid dynamics I'm ignorant of.
Ron

[AdeV]

My wife's 1993 240 Volvo wagon that has almost 290,000 miles and my 1993 Volvo 240 Sedan with 280,000 + miles only had one water pump each replaced since new. I have no bad thoughts about running a good water pump.

Just to put that in perspective... 290,000 miles at an average, say, of 40mph, equates to about 7200 hours. If you ran a generator 8hrs/day, that comes out at about 900 days; rounding up, about 3 years....

Just a bit of food for thought...

[Dail R H]

   indian / chinese pump versus volvo made pump,'nuff said

[Ronmar]

Vdubnut62, I was thinking the same thing.  A pump allows you to downsize the radiator. It also allows you to do away with the vertical requirements of thermosiphon.  Heat tramsfer is about temp diference and flow.  Less flow requires greater temp difference(larger radiator).  I imagine the biggest issue with making a hopper cooled engine work thermosiphon would be in the return pipe orientation and length so it could deliver the cool water to the lowest point in the hopper.  A raised top plate would also help the upflow, like a chimney on a woodstove.