Importing engines into the USA

[Apogee]

Howdy Gents:

Spoke with both US Customs and the EPA today regarding importing original Listers into the USA, but this info applies across the board to other engine types as well.

Item of note, they term "antique" as engines older than 100 years, so the term "antique" in our case doesn't apply.

They are very familiar with original Lister as well as the newer "Listeroid" engines.

Per EPA, if the original manufacturer date of the engine can be clearly identified, and they were built before emission standards, there is no problem importing them.  We need something identifying their age so I suggested engine serial number to the EPA rep and he said that it would be fine as long as we had something to decode it to show the engine age.  Per Ron, US Customs has the last word on it and so we have to be to prove the original manufacture date on each of them or they can turn them around.

We will need EPA form 3520-21 and we need to check the "engine built before emissions" checkbox.  Starting on page 3 of the form, it breaks down different types of engines and the year that emissions started to be required.  If the engine has been "re-manufactured" then it needs to meet requirements of the year that it was re-manufactured.

Per US Customs, they must be declared and there will be a fee of about 1.5% on the value for merchandise processing and harbor maint fees.  We will need to use US Customs forms 7501 (Dutes and Fees) & 3461 (Release).  Per Melissa, 8408.90.9010 applies and the engines should be duty free.  US Customs will also collect the EPA form and associated paperwork.

I would think it would be useful to have signed seller receipts for each engine showing the value.

I called the EPA back inquiring if there would be problem if we brought in a container of engines all belonging to different collectors.  Although he was skeptical that we would be able to find that many, Ron said as long as we can clearly prove their age there would be no problem with regard to EPA.

Makes no difference to the EPA or US Customs whether or not stuff is crated.  Per US Customs, if they want to look, they will uncrate.  Per EPA, didn't matter.

Asked if they thought it would be easier to bring across the border vs container.  They said it should make no difference as the requirements are the same.

Spoke with Ron Schuyler on EPA vehicle and engine import line at 734-214-4100 in Michigan.

Spoke with Melissa at US Customs, Team 790, Port of Seattle at 206-553-5380

Enjoy,

Steve

[AdeV]

Steve,

I'm happy to be "eyes and ears" on any engines you source in the UK for shipping abroad. If you can't get serial numbers out of the seller, I can eyeball the engines for identifying marks (i.e. serial nos in the flywheel, or they can be dated from the injection pump serial no, I believe).

In fact, I'm going to take a look at some of the engines which are destined for the container tomorrow...

I believe the shipment is being assembled in Blackpool - not exactly the nicest place in the UK in the middle of winter, having a reputation for being just a little bit cold and wet in the horizontal direction, but it's only about an hour and a half drive for me, so I can pop up there any weekend.

In fact, for some Lister engines, I believe we can even trace the day it left the factory & who it was delivered to....

[slowspeed]

Thank you for looking into the importing
I saw the 100 year thing and was thinking that all engines had to be 100 old
Looks like older then 1966?
This is some info I found on GOOGLe
Thanks Jeff 
I have one  6/1 payed for in the UK




example of this is the fact that most motor vehicles manufactured outside the United States conform to USA bumper, emission and safety standards, because these motor vehicles are going to be exported to and sold within the United States. This means that it is very unlikely that you will find a vehicle outside the United State that meets all relevant car importing standards.

Car Importing GuideImporting Japanese Cars or importing cars into the USA from any country requires that they meet safety standards as outlined in the Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 1966 as revised in 1988 in the Imported Vehicle Safety Compliance Act; to air pollution control standards as outline in the Clean Air Act of 1968 and amended in 1977 and again in 1990; and to the bumper standards of the 1972 Motor Vehicle Information and Cost Savings Act that were effective in 1978.
Importing Cars Requires A Skeptical Mind

Whether you are starting a car importing business or simply considering the possibility of importing cars for personal use, you need to be very skeptical of what your foreign car dealer or private seller when you are trying to determine if vehicle meets USA standards or whether their claims that it can easily be brought into compliance are based on fact or their eagerness to sell you their vehicle.

A key fact to remember when importing cars into the USA
- if the vehicle does not meet United States standards, it must be either exported, brought into compliance or destroyed.

The car importing information provided here is just the basics. Other essential requirements and information about importing cars into the U.S. may be obtained through the U.S. Customs Bureau and their associated agencies.  Also, because Department of Transportation (DOT) and Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) requirements often change, you should consult with these agencies before buying a motor vehicle outside the USA.

[LowGear]

I'm under the impression that there is a 25 year law with automobiles.  That's why you see so many 70s and 80s Coopers.

Casey

[Apogee]

I re-worded the 100 year comment in my original post so hopefully it makes more sense.

Here is the EPA's non-road engine info page:

http://www.epa.gov/nonroad/

[Apogee]

Ade,

Thanks for the offer to help!

It would be very helpful if we could get a copy of the reference info to decode the serial numbers posted online.  This way, if there was any question at any of the US Customs ports, we could pull it up...

Thanks,

Steve

[DRDEATH]

Ade Blackpool  was the only place I could think of because I had a friend there. I come from an area in the US that is use to horzonital snow. Thanks for looking at the engines this weekend. I bet it will be like a kid in a candy store going to Marks place. Hope your check book is full. Im glad to see you wont mind coming to Blackpool because I think I will need all the help I can get. I hope to have 1 night I will be able to experience the nicer things of life while I am there. Like real BEER. Not the water downed stuff we have here. Mike DD

[AdeV]

Steve,

The Lister engine dating info is on the web in a couple of places; but Peter Forbes' site is the best place.

For pre 1951 engines:  http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/EngineDating/Dating.htm
For pre 1970(ish) engines: http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/EngineDating/Dating5.htm
For newer engines: http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/EngineDating/Dating6.htm

e.g. one of the engines I looked at today had a serial number of CS87987. Being a 3.5hp engine, we can use the 1st table to determine that this is a 1951 engine (or maybe a 1952, just before they introduced the new number scheme).

Another one has the number 427251R2; so this is engine #4272, it's a 5/1, reverse rotation radiator cooled (sorry... Z=reverse rotation), and it was build in 1952. (use the 2nd table for this one).


My new toy is confusing me... the serial number is "60/17839". According to Peter's page, that makes it a 1910 engine... but if you ignore the "60/", it would be a 1945 motor. Doh, me being dumb, it's a 1945 engine... the bit in the 1910 column is just explanation, not a year of production. Oops. Gross weight (including frame, radiator & fuel tank) is 1500kg... ouch! Pictures will have to wait until I'm at home, and I can download from the phone (guess which muppet forgot his camera).

Mike,

If you make it over to Blackpool, for sure I'll come over & help you out with the beer... If you fancy a real challenge, come over when there's a beer festival on (they're ususally organised by CAMRA - CAMpaign for Real Ale - there usually 100s of varieties from just nice gentle pints, to real alcoholic neanderthals...

A fun day, I enjoyed poking around in his shed. I also came away with a pulley for my Chinese alternator to fit to the 6/1, and a big lump of graphite for making sterling engine pistons.  

[DRDEATH]

It sounds like you had fun, much more than a fun Saturday afternoon drive. Just an FYI the CD's and CE are SOLD. There is a buyer looking at some of the FR's. What did you think of Mark's power supply? He told me the story of that engine and how it was destined to scrap a short time ago. This was what has driven me to this venture. Protect the Listers that may have been destined to the smelter. Hopefully with American buyers wanting these the old engines they will have a second chance at life. When this load is complete I hope to start a second load. Mark Le Ritche has been redoing SOM units and was able to locate the original manfactures of the componets making up the SOM units. These should last a good many years. We are already working on something that will change the output of these machines into usable energy in the US. Mike DD

[AdeV]

Hi Mike,

It certainly was better than your average Saturday afternoon drive out... I try to avoid weekend travel normally, since there's so many muppets on our roads, but it really was worth dodging the morons.

He showed me the BFO generator engine, even fired it up for me. Wow.... a true beauty. I can't remember the manufacturer name now (typical). Quite noisy, but then silencers were in short supply  

I'll stick some photos up shortly.

[slowspeed]

Ade
want to also thank you for taking the time to Look at all the Listers
If we can agree on price,The lot could be bought at one time
If so how do you see all the engines getting to Blackpool?We may need to employ some help?
At this time do you think all engines will meet the EPA time line?
Did he have any electric fly weels sitting around?
Now for the Sterling engines ,If one could only be built that we could all make use of
Look at my sterling stuff on youtube if you like
just Google
1234asdf1
Good luck on that Sterling engine!!
Jeff
Phoenix AZ

[AdeV]

Hi Jeff,

Bulk transport to Blackpool would best be achieved by hiring a man with a flatbed lorry + hiab. So long as everything could be strapped down OK, that would work out cheapest for the number of engines involved.

I'm fairly sure all of the engines are pre-1960, I think that fits with your time requirements?

Sorry, no spare electric flywheels that I could see. Every man & his dog seems to be after electric flywheels... I could always put some feelers out for getting some new ones cast up. If we could put an order together for, say, 20-30 sets, these could be added to the container easily for shipping to the US. I could keep some sets here for sale to UK buyers. I'd see that as being a private joint venture between me & one (or more) US buyers, as we'd kind of end up being re-sellers. I have a pair of electric wheels here I can use as a pattern, and I believe there's a couple of foundrys nearby. I would anticipate them being shipped as rough cast, but I do have the facilities here to machine them prior to shipping, if required.

My sterling engine(s) will only be little model things.... I hadn't planned to make a full-size (multi-HP one)! 1st project is to make a little stirling fan that'll sit on top of a wood-burning stove & blow warm air into the room

[cgwymp]

If we could put an order together for, say, 20-30 sets, these could be added to the container easily for shipping to the US.

For the right price I might be tempted by a set.

[AdeV]

If we could put an order together for, say, 20-30 sets, these could be added to the container easily for shipping to the US.

For the right price I might be tempted by a set.

I'll try to contact one or both of the foundries this week & get an idea on price, and whether buying in bulk materially affects the unit price.

[Apogee]

Thanks Ade for all of the help!

I would be interested in a pair of SOM wheels if you decide to have some cast.

I also look forward to the pics...

Best regards,

Steve