anyone still working with applying automation

[mobile_bob]

to there projects?

just curious because i am neck deep in actually applying it to my trigen

by neck deep i mean that i never considered just how complex things can get to be.

when you get the autostart functions all drawn out, all the various components chosen to accomplish the task,
breadboarded and tested for operation, then work to get the controller to take over, the problem then becomes
where the hell to stop.

when things work better than first expected it is so easy to see how to add on functions, feedback circuits, etc
let alone all the remote monitoring, data acquisition, etc that could be incorporated.

it soon dawns on one that you gotta draw the line somewhere,, because...

who the hell is going to be able to work on it in the future when it needs repairs?

if it weren't for the positive aspects and benefits from automation allowing for optimizing efficiency, at this point i think i would
not be as strong a proponent for automation.

too easy to build a frankenstein monster in my opinion

so is there anyone still working on automation here

bob g

[Tom Reed]

I'm thinking real hard about it and looked into the basic stamp link you posted. I've done a bit of work with a plc5 recently so the subject is approachable to me. On my system I also plan to add some solar hot water panels on the roof too. But other things are higher priority right now. Please keep us informed.

[mobile_bob]

Tom:

good to hear there are still at least two of us left! 

i too will be integrating solar pv, and later some solar hot water, along with
a cooling tower i want to work with a bit.

thats one reason for the added complexity of the original design, i don't want to paint myself into
a corner, however leaving enough escape routes come with added complexity.

just drawing up the schematic is proving to be a daunting challenge.

at least the final draft which will be laid out very carefully so that someone unfamiliar with the system might have a fighting
chance at using it for troubleshooting.

i guess i better overbuild all the control system components so they outlast me and anyone i care about.

bob g

[AdeV]

Hey Bob,

I'm still planning an automation system for my CS; I've got a chinese gen head for it now, I need to fabricate (or buy) a suitable pulley, and I plan to mount a flywheel/ring gear off an old Vauxhall engine to give me electric start.... then I can start getting serious with the automatics.

Meantime, I'm expecting another baby any time soon....



...no, not that sort of baby. One of these:



only without the generator; rad cooled & electric start. Eventually, I will use it to generate 3-phase, most likely; but I anticipate playing with it a lot first...

[rl71459]

Last month I installed one of the control panels I had previously built up. The Items I added are more like improved controls and safety devices, not so much automation, More like Relay Logic, Breakers, Contactors and an Induction Gen adaptation for experimenting.

I must say the Ind Gen has been the most interesting stuff. I think alot of you fellas would be surprised how much can be done... so easily. Please dont read into this too much... I am not doing the illegal things you might think. I just crave knowledge, and hands on is the best teacher I have ever had.

Bob, I am very interested in your progress. I like the method you are developing, I feel it is a unique approach. I like the Status Indicator, Very creative. Good luck with everything and keep us posted.

Rob

[gregger2k]

Hey guys, count me in

I have a Kubota D-905 direct coupled to a ST10 head that I am working on an autostart for. I know that you can buy one cheaper but like you guys I want it to do more. I would like it to be fully integrated into the solar system and batteries.

I would also like to integrate the whole power system. With the current state of the industry it is difficult or impossible, especially with components from different manufacturers. I think that a charge controller should be able to monitor the current going into the batteries to decide when they are charged, not just the output current. Even better a battery monitor should notify the charge controller when the batteries are full and when to float.

I have used http://sites.google.com/site/martinnile/automaticgeneratorcontroller as a source of inspiration.

Now on to RS485, ModBus, and XanBus

Greg

[vdubnut62]

Pretty steep learning curve for me, but I do have hopes to automate start, run, shutdown, load dumps, etc.
Please keep forging ahead and breaking a trail for copycats like me! 
Ron.

[Lloyd]

I am knee deep into a re-wire  of a 1947 Shane Trimmer Ship. Below is the schema...c that I have created from notes from my survey..

This boat has the original cloth covered wire, that seems to have a wax imbeaded(sp)...it has been over ammmmmped in many locations, and attended to by many a prior owner and so called Marine Electrician. There are no schemas for the dual tachs, and various of the relays...so i took my BIG Butcher knife and just started cutting. AC and DC... HOUSE and Helms.
I thought I wouldn't have to worry about the inverter install, bc it was in boat wire and a recent version of the Xantrex 2512...but when I opened the  transfer switch... I saw only one green wire from shore to panel...no green wire to or from the inverter.

My auto system is coming I am working on the schematics in between jobs...I hope to post it soon.

I hope with winter coming I can get back to what's important...microcogen

Lloyd

[Lloyd]

[mobile_bob]

those two pics are of a layout i am trying to avoid, how anyone expects to troubleshoot such a mess is second only to
freighliners use of a single color of wire, denoted only with numbers that correspond only to an engineering drawing and
no schematic "as wired" available.

btw, i know what it is to just hack it all out and start over
sometimes that is the best solution to the problem.

i guess i don't want to build a system that down the road after i am gone, the next guy has to hack out and start
all over with because it is just a rats nest of crap held together with bandaids

what is it with bandaids anyway?

they must be the universal duct tape of amateur electricians or something

i always hope when i find them used on wiring that they were new ones that were used, and not something peeled off a bloody finger or something



bob g

[Mack_59]

In regards to the old wiring, on the ship, be carefull as some wires of that age had abestos insulation.

[rl71459]

Bob
Interesting about the Freightliners numbered wiring. That is common practice on the majority of Industrial Machine electrical systems. After awhile it becomes second nature dealing with it.

What makes it even more interesting is when the systems have both Numbered and Color Coded methods combined. At work we have seen some that have Color/Numbered systems where the numbers can repeat
just in a different color wire. Another confusing arangement is when machines and automation (Robots or other devices) have similar wiring to each other and are interfaced together particularly when they are of different brands! which it seems is a standard practice.

A friend of mine (Who Is Color Blind) worked there for a while. He had some interesting experiances with those machines when he had to work on the electrcal system. He sometimes would explain the different colors as dark or light. Most people did not know he was color blind, he and I worked on many cars/trucks over the years.. I loved hearing him discribe the underdash wiring! it was hilarious. He was very skilled and seldom did his condition trip him up. I'll bet he would like the Freightliner wiring!

Rob

[Tom Reed]

IH Scouts are like that under the dash too. When someone asks which wire the answer is always the green one. They do have numbers on them though.

[mobile_bob]

Rob:

re the freightliner wiring

the problem i have with freightliner, and commonly complained about by other techs and mechs that do wiring diagnosis
and repairs on their trucks is not so much the use of a single color wire and a numbering system, it is the fact that no two trucks
are wired the same, on top of that they do the following

1. there is no schematic included with the truck

2. the fuse/breaker panel has upwards of 40-50 breakers and fuses, none of which are marked as per function, no legend
in the cover either.

3. all optional equipment is not called out either, such as engine warning modules, daylight running light modules etc. so not only do you know if such exists, how they interact with the oem system, but worse where they are mounted, no two trucks have them mounted in the same place.

4.  to get a schematic you must have the vin number, and order it from freightliner, and when you get it, it will be engineers schematic, which has all the previous problems included but also the conventions used are not those of a typical schematic.

5. their schematic does not state where any component is located, location of such is up to the guy at the factories whim, and depends on not only who at the factory that wired it and mounted the components, but at what point of assembly did he do it. things like adding air conditioning, special radio's etc make for them placing other ancillary components in some very creative places, some of which are nearly impossible to find later or get access to for service and repair.

6. they use some stock harness equipment such as wheel and other abs system components, and rather than cut to length they will simply wad up the excess and zip tie the bundles up in the frame, often too close to exhaust components and in area's where frame edge contact will quickly wear through.

7. engine main computer fuses are in flying fuse holders and are mounted on top of the batteries in the battery box, and no they don't use seal lead acid batteries such as agm's but standard batteries which vent their corrosive vapors and cause issues sooner or later.

i also work on plant and production equipment, automated equipment and the like and understand the use of a single color of wire and numerical marking, however every such application comes with a schematic that stays with the machine. the schematics are not engineering prints but actual "as wired" working shematic's with legends and footnotes as to component locations.

also because of NEC code requirement along with other standards that machine manufactures seem to follow, mark and list all fuses and breakers plainly, they never take a huge bundle of wires and wrap them with black tape into a harness or wad and bury it someplace inaccessible, but rather place the wires in raceways of somesort where they can be quickly accessed and tracked down.

generally speaking this is the rule and not the exception

the thing is i can order two fl70 trucks from feightliner with identical spec's, and have them come off the line one behind the other
together with no other truck between them, and have two completely different wiring schemes used, because they were wired by two different guys.

that is just horsecrap in my opinion, no other manufacture does it this way that i am aware of and i work on all the different north american manufactured trucks,

btw, i almost forgot, their number system on their wires is such that the number may not show up near the component plug, but rather a foot or more back from it, which almost always means it is buried in the  taped up harness, which require removal of god knows what so you can cut into the harness to find the number.

if i were in charge at freightliner i would fire everyone from the head engineer clear down to the guys that install the crap on the floor, and start all over with a new group.

maybe i could get less sadistic group of non pot smokers to do the job?



bob g

[rl71459]

Bob

The whole Freightliner stuff sounds like a total mess! Note to Self... If ever I am purchasing a Semi... Stay Away From Freightliner!

I have absolutely ZERO experiance with big rigs. I think I will keep it that way!

Rob