Witte diesel generator

[bschwartz]

Any ideas what it's worth?  I'm thinking about placing an offer.  Does anyone have any info, suggestions, comments etc. on these old Witte engines?
http://lascruces.en.craigslist.org/tls/1826612177.html

[mike90045]

Looks well taken care of, with all the nice reddish paint over it all.

[LowGear]

Hi bschwartz,

Its older than the one I bought this late Spring in Portland Oregon for $1000.  Mine is a BD with US Steel on the badges and I think it was David at WitteMania that dated it as a 1952.  The larger one is a CD and can have factory electric start.  My generator reportedly does not generate.  I've seen these BDs and Cds with asking prices to $3500 but I don't know what the selling prices were except for mine.  I did put mine up for sale for a week in Seattle for $1500 and did not get one bite on CL.  They were designed to operate in the oil fields of Oklahoma and Texas is the story I'm repeating.  No exposed anything except those large flywheels.  This unit most likely has babbit bearings if your thinking of going inside.  This one looks to be water flow cooled while mine has a condenser tank on top puting the operating temperature when under load at almost 212 degrees.  It is a oil pressure system with filter and also has a fuel pump.  The later ones had a low oil pressure and high temperature shut down option.  I'm sure Diesel Guy will have more information to add in the next day or two.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V3JWJumZuw&feature=related

Hey, they read Made In The USA.  And they're males.

Casey

[Diesel Guy]

bschwartz,

That is a 1944 Witte CD model. They made them from 1935 - 1955, then went out of business. Years later Arrow engine company started building them and stopped sometime in the mid 1990's. They was sold at different operating speeds,  720 RPM, 750 RPM and 800 RPM. Witte stated that the best fuel economy and engine durability came from the 720 RPM speed and put out 12 + HP,  750 RPM = 14 + HP and 800 RPM = 16 + HP.

That engine for sale, has the two smooth, narrow, large diameter 32.2" industrial flywheels and would produce slightly greater stored kinetic energy potential as a Start - O - Matic Lister. (very good for an non - electric model). Don't let those picture fool you, it's bigger than it looks. My CD makes my 14/1 look like a toy. Don't get me wrong, I love my Listeroid engines. 

Parts are still available but are getting scarcer lately. It looks like its missing the fuel lift pump, no big deal you can still find them or go to gravity or electric fuel pump to the injection pump. It hard to tell what the inside looks like, but they come apart almost as easy as the Lister engines.

Like I stated in other post, those Wittes are built like tanks and made to run 24/7365 for decades. Oilfield engines are different than other engines, especially the old ones. One last thing, the crank to cam gears are MASSIVE American high grade steel and mine look brand new and it's a 1951 CD model.

As I previously wrote, I have the premium Diesel Electric Lighting Plant model 8 KW. It has "Extra Heavy" massive 32.2" Electric flywheels and at the rated speed stores almost "three times" the stored kinetic energy potential than a Start - O - Matic Lister. It's like having a 12/2 Start - O - Matic Lister with 4 extra heavy flywheels on it and the Witte would still have slightly more stored kinetic energy potential.

When shutting down, it literally take two minutes to stop. I'm mounting two 6.5 KW permanent magnet alternators behind it in place of the standard HD Witte alternator. One for use and the other for backup incase of failure, then up and running in minutes. My pulley ratio gives me 713 RPM @ 60 cycles. I'm de-rating it to a  20 amp 240 volt breaker = 4,800 watts. This allows me to only use 80% of the rated output of the alternator to keep it cool and minimize side loading pressures (HP vs. belt tension requirement) to the bearings under full load.

Also a Start - O - Matic Lister 6 HP @ 650 RPM was rated at 2,500 watts, which would equate to 417 watts per HP (conservative). Lister knew what they were doing, by not only calculating a very modest HP to wattage ratio but also calculating the proper stored kinetic energy potential in those heavy flywheels to reduce flicker. My Witte has a much greater stored kinetic energy potential than the Start - O - Matic Lister's and I'm using an even more conservative HP to wattage ratio, 400 watts per HP .

This enables me to get away with a permanent magnet alternator without AVR and still produce an almost "Flicker Free" output. With an 8" stroke and "excessive" stored kinetic energy potential, allows the Witte to produce a "very smooth" AC output without "any" electronic controls in the alternator or the governor and that is just what the doctor ordered for reliability and durability. I have so many upgrades on my engine, I'll save it for another time.

So if you choose to purchase it and have any questions, please let me know. Once you go Witte you won't be the same, you will look at things through a different prism.

Diesel Guy

[bschwartz]

Diesel Guy,

Thanks for all the info!!!!  The big question is, what is it worth?  What would a reasonable offer be based only on what you see in the craigslist ad?  Are these things collectible, or just old?  I already have a 6/1 listeroid, but this looks too cool to pass up.

[mobile_bob]

my take on the witte

if you can buy it right, find the repair parts, and have the ability to rebuild it...

then you should do it, because in my opinion it is in a class far above the lister/oids.

it should retain its value and appreciate over time as well, not sure a listeroid is going to appreciate
as much for some time.

bob g

[bschwartz]

General opinions are that it is a good engine..........
What would you offer?

[mobile_bob]

if it is not seized up, and is all there, i would offer him a grand for it
and see if he bites.

money is tight these days, so i don't expect he is over run with offers,....  yet!

being in NM it is doubtful that it has had to weather much rain or freezing temps, unless it is up in the mountains

just seems to me like a much better piece to work with than a listeroid, of course i might be prejudiced?

if it were me, i would lose the genhead, attach a couple of heavy duty alternators, a battery bank for a buffer
and a large inverter to make the clean AC, it would then be able to handle just about anything you could throw at it.

and return some nice BSFC numbers in gr/kw/hr produced.

its hard not to like that big hunk of iron

bob g

[Diesel Guy]

bschwartz,

Mobile bob is correct, It is up to you if want or capable of a rebuild, if necessary. If so, I think it would be a great project, they are easy.

I would say they are very collectable, especially when the EPA tightened their regulations on import engines. They just don't make them like they use to, everything is just cheaply made without any pride in their products as our ancestors had. How much is it worth? I would offer him $500.00 since it was running a short time ago, but it looks nice and ugly and he might take it. If not you can offer more as Mobile bob mentioned, but I would start there, he might not know what he has. I have just under $7,500.00 in mine but it is back to "new", with many upgrades.

If you got it, David Johnson has a few cylinder sleeves left for a CD Witte and there are no more to be found. He had 15, so purchased 2 of them, one for my rebuild and a spare. He always has some new old stock parts available for the BD and CD. I think he has a few more complete gasket kits left, he had Arrow engine company do a small run for him.

David Johnson
Witte Mania
1-918-625-8461
wittemania@cox.net

You can purchase a ring set and other parts from:

Industrial Ignition & Engine
Mr. Brent Harding
1-405-853-7178

As far as the lift pump, I just purchased this last week:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170503092941&ssPageName=ADME:B:BCA:US:1123 

The injection pump can be repaired or replaced from:

http://www.mopartscorp.com/products.htm 

They are the only ones around that have those pumps.

I would do a complete valve job and valve guides. Parts still available for them as well. David also

The one thing I like about the Wittes, they are very smooth runners and hearing them run first hand gives you the elusion that they will run forever.

Here is parts list I had got to show the cost of some of my parts I used for my rebuild, there was many more parts I did for my rebuild but here is some:


Qty   Description   Part Number   Price
1   Piston Rings   47870002   $87.83
1   Piston Pin   47001075   $78.69
1   Piston Pin Bushing   47400234   $87.43
2   Valves   47002180   $80.33 / $160.66
2   Guides   47202231   $46.64 / $93.28
      Subtotal:   $507.89
      Tax:   $27.93

      Total:   535.82



Qty.   Part No.   Description               Unit Price   Total   

1   47312021   Oil Pump Suction Screen   $29.50      $29.50
1   47103415   Eccentric, Fuel Pump      $10.50      $10.50
1   47312800   Shaft, Valve Lever      $22.00      $22.00
1   47003655   Gear, Governor         $38.75      $38.75
1   47311294   Governor Bell Crank      $8.50      $8.50
2   47005420   Valve Spring         $15.00      $30.00
2   KD-19      Cam Roller         $11.25      $22.50
2   47002050   Cam Roller Pin         $7.50      $15.00
1   47312635   Governor Spring      $12.20      $12.20
1   47317415   Governor Hub         $22.00      $22.00
1   7295      Governor Center Pin      $5.95      $5.95
1   47066455   Governor Hub Nut      $8.50      $8.50
5   47010045   Cylinder head Stud      $9.50      $38.00
2   47082440   Grommet, Push Rod Tube   $5.00      $10.00
1   KD-641      Inj. Pump Adjusting Screw   $5.95      $5.95
1   47316736   Intake Rocker Arm      $27.90      $27.90
1   47316737   Exhaust Rocker Arm       $29.90      $29.90
1   HL-528-3   Rocker Box         $92.75      $92.75
1   8540      Rocker Box Cover      $37.95      $37.95
1   6864      Nozzle Holder         $15.00      $15.00
1   HL-1476   Camshaft bearing Housing   $25.50      $25.50

         
TOTAL   $508.35
   

Qty   Description   Part Number   Price
2   Shim Packs   47864701   30.91 / 61.82
1   Con. Rod Bearing   47012672   165.38
1   Flywheel Nut   NPN   67.23
      Subtotal:   294.43
      Tax:   16.19


      Total:   310.62


Hope this help you some, if I could assist in anymore ways, please let me know.

Diesel Guy

[LowGear]

Am I crazy?  Are you guys looking at a different photo?  It looks like Hell.  We may see the hidden value but I bet 99999 people out of 100000 would be more tempted by the magic beans before they'd pay $14 for this thing delivered.

Making an offer is Hell though isn't it?  The good news is that he doesn't sound emotionally attached.  If you offer too much he'll know you're crazy and go for the moon and not enough?  No emotional involvement - no insult. 

The good news is that google hasn't picked it up yet.

Good Luck.

[bschwartz]

He said he had an offer of $2500 but he couldn't deliver it.  If I can pick it up, I can have it for $1800.
I can't justify that kind of money for something that was sitting out in the weather, and is difficult to buy parts for.  I could use another prime mover.  A restoration project I don't need.

[mobile_bob]

if you can swing a grand, tell him you got a grand in hand
cash, green and leafy, burning a hole in your pocket, and you are also looking at a
running gm 2-71 detroit that you can get for the grand, and it "runs"!

if his buyer was serious about the 2500 dollar offer, he would have already been there and picked it up
or made arrangements to get it picked up.

he is pushing, so push back

be prepared to walk away, and not think about it

be sure and give him a deadline on your offer, tell him you are going to meet the seller of the GM 2-71 genset on saturday morning
and after than your money will be spent.

put out the bait and be ready to set the hook!

bob g

[bschwartz]

Thinking rule of thirds, I sent him an email saying that $1200 was as much as I could go for an old engine that may need some work, and is difficult to get parts for.
I'll see if he bothers to email me back.  I'm still interested, but it's an 80 mile drive one way just to go look.

[LowGear]

Obviously I think $1000 is a lot for this potential.  Offering $2500 and coming up with 25 Franklins are a long way apart.  Running two years ago often is more like 10 years.  Now if he doesn't bit on your $1800 he is crazy and don't bother to go any further.  I'm sorry but I'm jaded.  Perhaps that's why it took me over three years to find what I wanted at a decent price.  I did pass up a CD for $2500 that still haunts me but while "Buyer's NOT remorse" lasts a lot longer than "Buyers Remorse" it is actually easier to live with.  A good question is how many dollars and hours would it take one of the people on this site that have brought something like this back to life.  (Open question)

If you're really interested in these mid 20th century US made industrial grade engines then put wanted ads in a couple of places.  You're welcome to use the photos I've posted although serious enthusiasts like David and Diesel Guy would spot that it's the smaller BD rather than the CD.  How many KW do you want to produce?  The sooner you define your needs the sooner you can purchase the right system or elements.

Local craigslist.  I only had to get mine hauled 200 miles ($250) door to door.  From Seattle to Kona may take a few more coconuts.

Smokstak

YouTube

I'm sure there are other sites that our membership could recommend.  My policy is to always always always use photos when possible and use lots of key words like diesel, bio diesel, flywheel, generator, and the like.  Words in your "needs definition" would be another place to look.

Good Luck.

[bschwartz]

I didn't offer $1800, he said that is what I could have it for.  I only offered him $1200, and even that is upon inspection.