i hate doing this...

[mobile_bob]

because no matter how careful i try to be, i end up pissing off somebody.

here's the deal guys,

we are all adults, we come from various backgrounds, and have diverse political views, but
we know we can all agree on a few things, those being what this forum is all about.

we can agree and work together on micro cogeneration projects, we can even choose to join the new SOMRAD group
and focus our efforts on something very useful, or we can pick sides and throw rocks, kick sand and generally just upset each
other.  this btw seems counter productive to me,, and generally does not aid in our progress.

i don't know for sure, but i am reasonable certain that there are ultra liberal and right wing extremists all working together in concert
at NASA and they manage to do great things in spite of the underlying differences.

this is not to say that we as a group could put a man on the moon, but we ought to be able to do some really interesting and useful work
on micro cogeneration, following the working model of others such as NASA.  never having worked for NASA or any other large corp, therefore
i am not sure, but my bet is "ones" politics are either best left at the door or they are mandated to do so.

recently as most know we have developed the R&D group (SOMRAD) and are partnered with the EPA for our work on micro cogeneration
(combined heat and power) work, and i am not about to allow this place to slide into some pissing match that makes us look like something less
than what we really are, or could be as a group.

there are some of us that have put a lot of time and effort into the development of this board, its ongoing maintenance, and the EPA partnership

we either take a different approach "now" or some changes will be made that will surely piss off somebody here, and quite frankly i don't care who gets PO'd as long as we can continue to make progress toward our goals.

we shouldn't need moderators to referee verbal fights, moderators job should primarily be cleaning up the posts, moving as needed, splitting topics for clarity, and a host of other things that are of use to clarify and improve the flow of information.

please think about what i have written here, and bear in mind i am not without sin in this regard, i too have a political opinion on just about everything and i too need to curb my need to argue my politics on this forum.

heaven knows there are ample forums on the web to go to and argue politics till you turn blue and pass out.

so lets get back to what we do best, that is working together to accomplish a set of goals, i personally cannot think of a better group of guys to work with, even though we might not see eye to eye on everything.

and also lest i forget, i do not want to lose anyone because they don't feel comfortable or feel alienated. Further there will be an effort to contact those that became members but have dropped out for whatever reason to see if we can get them to come back and take another look at the forum and the direction we are heading. the last thing we need is for them to come back to more of the same that drove them off to start with.

comments are welcome

bob g

[billswan]

Yes bob you are right I will never talk politics on this forum again only CHP.

Billswan

[LowGear]

DARN.  I guess I missed it. 

Anyway, this site in always in my favorite five.

Some folks should just tune back into their favorite talk radio show host and be happy. 

For what it's worth bob g; it is the nature of mankind to push against limits.  When you find paradise please let me know.  I'm available.  In the meantime I'd like hang out here from time to time learning and growing.

Thanks for your hard work and time.

Casey

[AdeV]

This forum is always my 1st visit of the day, and often my last at night. IMHO, Bob is right on this one - we don't need politics (or religion) on this site, both are too divisive.

Again IMHO, I'd like somewhere to post up funny/weird stuff I happen across with people (that's you, dear reader) who I consider my friends; but I've little desire to "talk politics". The few efforts I've made to genuinely find out info in The Octogon seem to have become political sh*t-fights...

[veggie]

Just wondering....
If this site is devoted to CHP, engines, thermodynamics, and mechanics, ...why have spot for politics at all?
There are probably hundreds of sites where a person can go to debate politics.

veggie

[Lloyd]

One thing to remember this forum is a community first. Also I thought that the SOMARAD GROUP was the exclusive forum where community was only in re co-gen...no community.

It seems that the community outside of the SOMARAD should allow anything but belligerent name calling even in the topics as long as it relates to the topic...moved to the octagon when it exceeds the actual intent of the discussion....minor political, that's related to the topic isn't a distraction, as long as it doesn't go out of bounds.

That's just my opinion...it's also my opinion that there has never been a topic that was hot debated that degenerated into...an unhealthy name calling bash, at least since I have been on this forum...and I believe that I have read almost every topic here.

just my thoughts,

Ll ::)yd

[vdubnut62]

I HAVE read every post here... as I recently commented to the admin, as long as no one starts name calling and playing dirty the topics always run their course and die a natural death in a few days or weeks.
Ron

[akghound]

If this site is devoted to CHP, engines, thermodynamics, and mechanics, ...why have spot for politics at all?
veggie

There are some political issues (Laws) involving CHP. There will no doubt be new and more restrictive laws presented as time goes on. As these are addressed there is bound to be some political views expressed and I am of the opinion that we need to discuss these in order to fully understand them or get them changed.
Too have found this site to be the most civil when it comes to controversy. Therefore I see no need to do away with the Octagon
Just my two Bits worth
Ken Gardner

[vdubnut62]

So help me , I have read and reread and read again, and I fail to find a post that would open up all the recent hullaballoo.....
Perhaps the inflammatory post was deleted?
If not, this feeling of walking on eggshells so as not to offend a "gifted few" that seem to be very thin-skinned is getting tiresome.
I can't even figure out what the offending comment was!!??.

A little help here?

For a bunch of grown men, this whole question of political correctness is petty.
At least the offended individual could man up and publicly let everyone know what bothered him without running to the admin.


Bob, if you deem this post  inflammatory, please delete it!  Or at least let us know what was the problem!
If it was my comments, I will go away, quietly.

Ron.

[Crofter]

A rhetorical question; why does the Octagon state that religion should not be discussed? I see the reason being that it is a topic that has too many areas that cannot be reconciled and does more to separate and polarize people into cliques. There really is not a whole lot of difference in having strongly convinced people bringing partisan based perceptions into a discussion. No question it aggravates those at the other end of the spectrum and usually the center as well. I think it spills over into other discussions.

I dont agree that as long as there is no belligerent or blatant name calling that all is good. There are many other slightly more subtle ways to express the same sentiment that are as equally damaging when attempting to brain storm or resolve a question. That seems to be only questionably good for politics not resolving mechanical issues.

There are forums that specialize in insults and they are available on every imaginable topic including religion and politics, but most technical forums that collect the best of the talent in a given field dont waste time with uncivility or posters who jerk the moderators around when they are called to task.

I have seen forums create an invisible forum for members only who subscribe to it and there are no holds barred there but the friction created there still seems to affect the open forum in sly little ways but just is not so obvious to outsiders.
It seems the important thing is the question, is a practice good for the forum. I dont think anyone really would have problems following the rules of engagement. The edit function works good anyways.

[Crumpite]

So help me , I have read and reread and read again, and I fail to find a post that would open up all the recent hullaballoo.....
Perhaps the inflammatory post was deleted?
If not, this feeling of walking on eggshells so as not to offend a "gifted few" that seem to be very thin-skinned is getting tiresome.
I can't even figure out what the offending comment was!!??.

A little help here?

For a bunch of grown men, this whole question of political correctness is petty.
At least the offended individual could man up and publicly let everyone know what bothered him without running to the admin.


Bob, if you deem this post  inflammatory, please delete it!  Or at least let us know what was the problem!
If it was my comments, I will go away, quietly.

Ron.

Ron,

All of the following is just my opinion:

I'd guess that the problem was someone accused the present government of using the present oil crisis as a tool to further their political goals.
Now, as far as I'm concerned, that's business as usual, no matter who's in power.

However politics today has become *so* polarized that an attack at the government in general can be taken as an attack on the persons own belief system.
Criticize the president, you criticize me and my beliefs. (not mine personally)

It happens all the time and on all sides of the political spectrum.

That's why I'm so set against political comments in the forum - it acts to polarize the forum in to separate groups that now tend to view each others comments in a political light.
Pretty soon folks start seeing all kinds of personal criticism even in the most innocent comments.
The groups tend to fall apart or loose any value due to good ideas being ignored since "it came from the other camp."

I've personally seen three good groups die due to this problem, and my wife has seen two herself.

It's pretty simple to just quit including any kind of political message embedded in your postings.
Saves time, trouble and heartbreak...

Now as for "man up and publicly let everyone know what bothered him".
Now you're starting an argument about who's right and who's wrong and why.
20 posts later the problem is settled and the whole thread on "centrifuges" or whatever is totally sidetracked into political arguments.
The person just might be trying to avoid confrontation and ask that the rule about no political comments outside the octagon be actually enforced.
You see how well that worked.

"For a bunch of grown men, this whole question of political correctness is petty"
Well, let's just say that I disagree with that statement.

There isn't a clean dividing line between political correctness and common sense.
Until someone defines that dividing line, you always take the risk of offending someone when you start with political, race, religion or sexist comments.

We all have our blind spots.
You clearly don't see any problem with the centrifuge posts.
I clearly don't see any problem with putting any stuff that isn't technical into the octagon area.

Who's right ?
So far as I'm concerned, there isn't any right or wrong in the issue, we just need to define whatever rules we want to live by, and then follow them.
And that's up to the list owner.

I hope I haven't offended you either, OK?
This is just my opinion, we all got one...

Crumpite

[cgwymp]

I'm with Crumpite.  I've seen several boards ruined by political bickering, even when it's kept to a "special" area.  My sense is that it undermines the sense of community and creates an "us vs. them" mentality.  Then when someone gets tired of being on the receiving end of what is often just political trolling and objects, they're met with screams of "free speech!", "intolerance!", "thin skin!", and "political correctness!"  To me, it's not political correctness, it's just plain old common courtesy and civility.  Don't insult your host, and don't insult his other guests.  There's a time and place for everything, and the place for political bickering would be a political website (and I guess over there, the time would be "always." ;-)  It's no different than having VI vs. Emacs arguments here, or Ford vs. Chevy arguments on a Linux development forum, or arguments about Listeroids vs Petteroids on Huffington Post.

All that said, does Octagon even exist here any more?  I'll be darned if I can find it, not that I have any desire to go there....

[Crumpite]

I'm with Crumpite.  I've seen several boards ruined by political bickering, even when it's kept to a "special" area.  My sense is that it undermines the sense of community and creates an "us vs. them" mentality.  Then when someone gets tired of being on the receiving end of what is often just political trolling and objects, they're met with screams of "free speech!", "intolerance!", "thin skin!", and "political correctness!"  To me, it's not political correctness, it's just plain old common courtesy and civility.  Don't insult your host, and don't insult his other guests.  There's a time and place for everything, and the place for political bickering would be a political website (and I guess over there, the time would be "always." ;-)  It's no different than having VI vs. Emacs arguments here, or Ford vs. Chevy arguments on a Linux development forum, or arguments about Listeroids vs Petteroids on Huffington Post.

All that said, does Octagon even exist here any more?  I'll be darned if I can find it, not that I have any desire to go there....

I see that you see what I see...

I can still see the Octagon, but maybe only 'cus I'm a moderator.


Crumpite

[cgwymp]

I can still see the Octagon, but maybe only 'cus I'm a moderator.
Crumpite

Must be a moderator thing.  Feel free to keep it that way.  ;-)

[vdubnut62]

It's possible that  Sammy Kershaw did have it right after all - "Talk about anything, anything in this world but politics, religion and Her".
Keep trying, maybe Ya'll  will learn me something after all!
Ron
PS.  But I ain't makin any promises, it's purty hard to teach a rock to swim.