Changfa s1110 cooling

[r77]

Hi all, am new here, and have a question in relation to a Changfa ZS1110/GN or GNM if refering to the electric start version, its a 110 bore by 115 stroke, 17:1 DI engine, the changfa site spec says its condenser cooled, yet a spec / info sheet on another site says radiator cooled, I was looking the other site in relation to a this engine belt coupled and built into a frame, as I plan to acquire something along those lines, I have never dealt with condenser cooling, have never even seen such a system working, either way, could someone explain if one is better than the other at keeping the engine running without a melt down, which one is the most dependable, also is either of the systems more eficent fuel wise, has anyone experiance with this partucular engine,  any help would be much apreciated, I have the changfa spec sheet in pdf, but can only post a link to the third party spec sheet, if links are apropriate,
perhaps some will help me out, thank you all in advance.

[Ronmar]

I think the term condenser is mis-used in this case.  It probably should read evaporator cooled.  This is also refered to as hopper cooled.  Basically the cylinder has an open topped tank on it which you fill with water.  As the engine warms the water heats and rises.  As the water gets closer to boiling, it gives off more and more heat to the atmosphere thru evaporation, untill it actually does boil, the severity of which is determined by the load on the engine.  Simple, effective, but you must add water regularly to replace that boiled away.  The water should also be flushed out regularly as the distillation process removes the H20 and leaves any other minerals/particulates behind to collect in the system.

The radiator system has a tube and fin assembly bolted on top of the cylinder in place of the hopper tank.  It also has a belt driven fan that pulls air thru the fins.  No water pump is used, so as water is heated around the cylinder, it rises up into the radiator to be cooled.  Water that is cooled falls back down into the cylinder to be reheated.  It has a radiator cap, and is a closed system.  With the addition of a expansion tank, it can use antifreeze and can run indefinitely.  Drawback is if the fan fails, it will fail to cool properly.  There have also bee reports that the radiators dont always hold up to the diesel vibration, and can develop leaks...

[mobile_bob]

its taken a lot of years to understand quality control issues with chinese engines

the hopper cooled versions are about bullet proof, but require keeping an eye on the water level and Ronmar alludes to.

the radiator version has issues with reliability, basically they get shook apart from vibration also as Ronmar stated.

it always amazed me how the basic engine is as well made as it is, but the ancillary parts are such crap, things like radiators are built so thin, that they crack and come apart fairly quickly.

i finally got an understanding of what the thought process is behind this sort of build philosophy

they need to build an engine that is durable, but cheap to sell to their largest buyer, that being in country (china) and those countries in close proximity.

in order to do this, they cut corners on things that a farmer can readily work around or fix himself locally.

also the chinese government price supports those products by some 70%, so the engines are really cheap to the chinese users, then if one blows up they simply send him a new one and let him keep the old one for parts.  it works out well for both the manufacture and the end user, but not so well for the rest of us that don't understand or benefit from that business model.

a typical 195 probably cost a chinese farmer less than 50bucks USD, and he really does not need it to run 24/7 and probably doesn't let it run unattended anyway, because it is driving the tractor he is on, or powering a grinder he is feeding grain into, and if something starts to overheat he is there to dump more water into it. he likely keeps a bucket of water handy for just that sort of thing.

my bet it 99% of all chinese engines are run intermittently, and the vast majority will have someone standing around it while it is running.  he views his engine much like his ox, or water buffalo, in that he wouldn't walk off and leave his animal to continue working in his absence.

so what do we learn from this? 

if you want to run long hours, and do so unattended?
then you likely will want to fit the engine with a radiator, a thermostat, an electric fan
and some sort of overheat and low oil pressure shutdown capability. all of which can be robbed from a small car laying in a boneyard just waiting to be repurposed.

the 1100 and 1110 engine's are very well engineered, and well built in my opinion, i would strongly recommend going to www.utterpower.com and look into what George has written and illustrated in the way of removal of the water tank, or radiator, and installing a block off plate, fitting a thermostat is a piece of cake, and adding an off the engine mounted real radiator is not at all difficult, then you can run antifreeze and a pressurized system.

i would then recommend the use of a bosch auxiliary heater pump from a mercedes, audi, vw, or whatever as a water pump, and the electric fan and temp sensor that probably came with the radiator of the small car you got it from.

i use an early 80's honda tstat housing, because it has a bypass, which allows for faster warm up.

the result should be an engine that warms up quickly, heats up to where the tstat stays open, and heats further till the fan switch kicks in. this allows the tstat to stay open and the fan to regulate the the engine temperature.  coolant temperatures under load can be between 205 and 215 degree F. due to the 7lb radiator cap and antifreeze.

the use of antifreeze will keep down rust and corrosion, both of which are hard on the engine when it comes to cooling.

btw, running at the elevated temperatures allows for a nice smoke free max rated load operation, best fuel economy, and longer life.

fwiw
bob g

[r77]

Hi Ron, and bob g, thank you very much for explaining, I understand now the orinciples involved, the radiator idea does appeal the most, though I would find it hard to trust the components  used in the system, as they serve such a critical purpose. However, in the event one could simply remove the radiator assembly, " if it was playing up, and caught in time," would it be possible to remove the radiator system, and be left with two connectable pipes to make ones own pumped cooling sys, or are you left with a huge machining project, I have seen the utterpower conversion from hopper system,  just wondering realy if the rad cooling sys became too hard to mentain, can it be removed, and a new aproach taken, i cant find a diagram of the cooling radiator/system, and Id like to know before I buy, as I want to be able to keep the thing running with minimal resources, has anyone experiance with this particular engine or modifying it/its cooling sys, may be you have time to comment on the system in the link below, does it look to you guys like its as described, can anyone recognise the alternator used,
thank you kindly,  John

changfa ZS1110 engined gen with rad cooling

http://world-motor.en.alibaba.com/product/380305015-209823113/open_type_GF1_generator.html

[mobile_bob]

you can unbolt the oem radiator assembly and mount a block off plate
my plate is made of 5/16" hot rolled steel, plasma cut, but could have just as easily
been torch cut and cleaned up with a grinder.

weld in bungs for fittings as needed, and away you go

a simple diy project requiring no machine work in my opinion, although there will always be those that insist on cnc billet titanium 

bob g

[r77]

Hi bob g, thank you for clearing that up, aluminium i can handle, just needed to be sure it can be done, not so easy without a visual or someone who knows, thanks again bob g,must check out the import situation next, sure hope it ads up, quite impossible to get small diesels here in Ireland, all the good old stuff went in the scrap this past 10-15 yrs, ppl had too much handy money, everything had to be new, no one can
afford now, and you have no choice but import, and still the scrap men drive past here daily, loaded with the last if the good old stuff,
anyway, did anyone get a chance to look at theitem in the link I posted, would love to identify the alternator used, have read a lot about poor quality windings, bearings and plastic fan disintigrations, would rather avoid these things happening, last gen I had was a 1939 Smit, 20kw, Dutch made, weighed over a ton, now them windings lasted, hard to replace that kina stuff.

[Ronmar]

Basically it is what I have only in a newer package/frame.  As bob states, the rad is easilly unbolted and a blockoff plate with in and out pipes is added.  The parts kit I received with mine actually has a sheetmetal one of these, complete with fittings.  They call it a "marine kit" if I recall correctly.  Setup with one tube longer than the other it should thermosiphon, but IMO it is not an ideal configuration for this, but I havn't experimented with mine in that config yet as it still has the rad fitted.  Here is a pic of the kit.



The alternator STC-10 is I believe the brushless regulated version of the ST series generator.  Mine appears to put out pretty good power the little I have run it.  It is still setting in my garage as I do not have it's home in the generator hut quite ready yet:)

Sadly quality in all the ST's varies greatly from manufacturer to manufacturer.  You will get what you get:)

[mobile_bob]

STC is a 3phase head!

cool if that is what you got, not many around.

bob g

[r77]

Hi all, just want to say thanks to Ron and bob g, the picture and your explaining makes it crystal clear, I have a much better understanding of what am geting into, much apreciated,
John

[Ronmar]

STC is a 3phase head!

So it is, I was confusing it with mine.  I thought the C was prettymuch the same as a TFDW which I have, but mine is most definitely single phase.  But they are both  brushless and use an AVR for voltage regulation...

[r77]

Hi everyone, looking more info please, from what I understand, phases aside, the stc and the tfdw are avr controlled, so not bringing phases into the equation, can anyone confirm whether or not Z windings are used to excite either of these units, and excuse my lack of knowledge, but are Z windings and harmonic windings the same animal, both terms seem to crop up whilst looking over stc spec alternators, the little I can find seems to suggest the rectifier diodes on the tfdw  rotate, but where,  can anyone confirm where these diodes reside on a tfdw , are they soldered to the back of the the main rotor where they connect up to a Z winding, or are they further back on the shaft, and perhaps work with a seperate exciter, any info much apreciated, if this all seems too far off topic, its not intentional, I had a quick look in the st/stc section but could no see tfwd info, please move it wherever is best,
thank you all,
John

[r77]

Hi folks, is there some reason no one is answering or commenting on my last request for more info,  have I posted something out of the ordinary, perhaps the storm has people occupied, either way, you are in my prayers, God bless, John

[Ronmar]

I need to look at my TFDW, but it is buried in the garage and I have been busy on other projects:)  From memory(iffy proposition), I THINK the TFDW uses a harmonic winding, then regulates that to be sent back to the field.  There is an additional rectifyer in the doghouse that the field excitation passes thru(converts to unfiltered DC) before entering the coupling windings that transfers the energy to the rotor. That energy being transfered to the rotor via the coupling windings is converted back to AC.  On the rotor, there are 2 rectifyers that convert the coupled field energy back to unfiltered DC which feeds the field winding on the rotor.

I will have to look at my original drawings from when I disassembled it, to confirm this, but it does have additional windings in the case.  The regulator on mine had an issue and was running a little low at max adjustment, Since I already have a much higher quality brushless regulator, I have installed that. It uses the main winding output to create and regulate the field feedback energy, so when I put it in, I insulated and tied back all other windings, so i didn't spend much time with those. It also made a much cleaner/simpler doghouse.   

Yes, I believe the Z and harmonic windings are the same when refering to the ST series generators