I'm going up on muder charges...maybe

[Lloyd]

Well I thought I'd share my little saga.

The prosecutor hasn't filed charges yet, bc the victims haven't been declared dead by the BE.

But if it happens I'm going to plead the shoemaker defense...You know a shoemakers kids go barefoot.

It seems with working 7 days a week for the last 6 months has resulted in some negligence on my part.

It all started last year when we went on vacation, I set my inverter charger to max bulk/equalize to two hrs bc I always give the bats a good EQ before our annual 3 week trip North. BC it's an older Trace it doesn't have true temp compensation. It has pots for float, bulk, and EQ that you plug your DMM into and adjust the set points, then you set the average temp where the bats live for temp compensation.

So in the fall I set the temp to about 40 degrees, and in summer about 60 degrees, then the inverter compensates based the voltage settings. Well I was negligent and for got to 1) set the timer back to 6 hrs after the EQ session, and 2) In the fall adjust the temp compensation, for the cold season. This has resulted in an under charge since we returned last September, one compounding the other.

So opening day boating season is this cumming weekend, so I check water, and the bats are down to the plates, each cell takes a good once to cover. Next I do my annual load test(can't do a SPG, not enough electrolyte to float the hydrometer), and the bank falls flat on it's face.

1st I set up a 21 amp load, and with in 15 minutes the Bat Monitor is reading 12.4 volts, after an hour it's down to 12.2 volts. So I add some more water another 3-4 ounces to each cell, then I crank up the load to 120 amps and let it run for 45 minutes after the load is increased the voltage drops to 11.9, it holds there until I disconnect the an hr later. After 30 minutes the bank recovers to 12.3 volts.

So I do an SPG non of the cells will float the hydrometer, it's most likely the water added and a stratified electrolyte from sitting all winter on a float of 13.2, but that's not the real float voltage bc I forgot to adjust the temp, last fall.

So I open the inverter cabinet and that's when I found the time pot set for 2 hrs and the temp pot set for 60 degrees.

I make the necessary adjustment, the banks were sitting at 50 degrees, I crank up the Absorption voltage to 14.8. The charger stars up and showing 60 amps, it should be well north of 80 amps, I check the peak sign wave of the incoming grid power, and believe this is only at 150, now with the old Trace not being Power factor corrected, and the low peak wave voltage, my 150 amp potential is giving me 60 amps. My digital AC meter says I'm drawing 28 amps from shore power, at 110 volts, that should be 3080 watts divided by the bulk voltage of 14.4 that should be 213 amps DC, limited to the rated 150 amp output of the Trace.

So after three hrs, the the hydro is now floating at 1.20 to 1.210, voltage isn't rising above 14.4 even though I have it set at 14.8, the amp into the banks is fluctuating between 35 and 45 amps bulk charge, bat temps haven't exceed about 55 degrees, shell run at this volt/amps for 6 hours or until the amps drop to 13 charge, which ever come first.

So we wait until tomorrow for the BE-Battery Examiner(me) to see if the victims are declared dead, and if the Prosecutor(me) files murder charges.

Did I get the point across that this was/is my own personal bat bank(kids with no) shoes.

I'm still holding onto the shoemakers defense, with additional share of the blame to the GRID Operators for only providing 150 peak wave voltage, and maybe indicting Trace, for not thinking about Power Factor Correction.

That's my story, and I'm sticking with it.

Lloyd

[Lloyd]

Well, I didn't murder my bats.              We all know bats don't die they're Murdered.

So here is prognosis,    

The bats are Trojan T-125/240 amp hr 6 volt cells, there are 3 pairs in series, then each pair is paralleled to it's neighbor, creating a 720 amp hr bank. With the tails for the positive going to the Ships bus coming at the opposite end of the bank for the tail to the negative negative bus. All series cables pos/neg are the exact same length, all parallel cables are the exact same length, the tails to the ships bus pos/neg are the exact same length, all cables are 4/0.

The bank was installed April 2003

I did two discharge/charge sessions after adding water, next I did an SPG on the bank, it wasn't good "see the attached pdf"

There were 2 week sisters in the group of six. What's really confusing is the week sisters were at the tails, not in the middle, as would be expected. The first week sister was bat 1, with cells 1 & 2 at the pos tail to the bus, the other week sister was bat 5, cells 13, & 14, 4 cells away from the neg tail to the bus. The only corrosion found on any of the lug/terminals was at the series pos/neg between bat 3 & 4, which by all accounts were the strongest sisters in the group.

So I split the 2 week sisters into a pair in series, disconnected the rest, and run a discharge load of 20 amps for 2 hrs, the they hit 12.1 volts. I then dropped the load and the resting voltage was 12.3. Next I reduced the load to 5 amps, and let it run for 16 hrs, the voltage dropped to 11.5 over this period. I disconnected the load for 1 hr and the voltage rose to 12.1 volts. The bat monitor showed 124 amp hrs taken from the week sisters.

Next I  ran a full bulk charge at 48 amps, about 3 hrs, when it hit an absorption rate at 14.8 volts at about 19 amps, I
let it run for about 6 hrs. The bat monitor showed I put back in the original discharge of 124 amp hrs, plus an additional 79 amp hrs. I let the bank rest for an hr, and did a SPG the weakest cell #13 showed an improvement, with an increase to  1.245, the other week cells were 1.250 or better.

I disconnected the week sisters and will let em sit overnight, then check the SPG  tomorrow. The four other sister have been sitting idle for 2 days now with a resting voltage of 12.67, and an SPG ranging between 1.255 & 1.275...they can still use a little work...but I think they are going to survive with one more EQ.

I just dawned on me while typing this that 4 of the sisters came from one distributor in Tacoma, and the other 2 came from the Trojan dist. warehouse in Seattle. They were purchased on the same day...but now I need to check the manufacture date codes and see which bats were from whom.

Considering that these old girls, are old in dog years...I might be wasting my time...a ship can't go to sea with bad bats. If they were to be used on land..I'm thinking they may have some life yet.

Lloyd

[mike90045]

 years for trojans is pretty good from what I hear, does the boat take much of a pounding at sea ? that may account for another year there.

[Lloyd]

years for trojans is pretty good from what I hear, does the boat take much of a pounding at sea ? that may account for another year there.

Hi Mike,

She an old displacement hull with a plumb bow, so she cuts most seas we're in. The bats live in the basement/tank room, with average temps about 15-20 degrees below outside air except during late fall thru early spring were they tend to stay about 40-50, the water under her hull has a tendency to hold her 10-15 degrees above. That's great for battery life at the cost of amps available.

I have the bats in poly boxes, with a 3/4 inch thick, nitral rubber mat under each pair of bats. I expected them to live ten years. I think my lack of time this last six months, has been the reason they most likely won't make ten years.

update before the final decision.

The prognosis is still out, but when I returned to the boat today after 16 hrs resting voltage was 12.73 on the week sisters. The SPG on the weakest cell had increased to 1.260.

So today I set up an extended absorption cycle 6 hrs, at 12 amps until the charge amperage fell to 0...the bat monitor said I put in 30 amp hrs, I let em rest for a half hr, then I set em up an an equalize cycle of 10 amps, at 15.5 volts, and held them there for 2 1/2 hrs. Then voltage started rising to 16, so I shut down the EQ, the bat.mon. said I put in another 15 amps, after a half hr rest the SPG was in between 1.260 & 1.265, and based on experience tells me that after an overnight rest, that it will continue to rise until all of the bubbles relax and a complete mixing of the electrolyte and water has happened.

So it seems that after 8 years that these bats are suffering from stratification of electrolyte, as opposed to any severe sulfating then more then would be expedited. My guess is the fact that i for got to adjust the temp comp, and the fact that I failed to adjust the time comp back was the cause of this stratification.

Essentially for the last six months they have been acting as a standby bank, as opposed to an off-grid bank. In standby I think AGMS would be a better choice. But in an application such as mine I still think FLA's are the best investment, in return on the buck if, 1. you're will to manage them and 2. the bank is sized to meet the loads correctly with good over head.

I going to re-connect all of the sister's and the load test that will tell is this coming weekend, where we'll not be grid connected for 4 days. If the bank doesn't pass this sea trial it be will the scrap yard for these bats. If this were a lnad install I think these bats could easily be nursed and get a couple of more years out of them.

But if they're not fit for duty, they just can't go to Sea.

Lloyd

[hal]

Lloyd,

What is your verdict.   I have to ask with the boats that you work on and all the batteries available>> what is your recommendation for the replacement set?   Have you had any luck with Deka AGM's

[Lloyd]

Lloyd,

What is your verdict.   I have to ask with the boats that you work on and all the batteries available>> what is your recommendation for the replacement set?   Have you had any luck with Deka AGM's

Hi Hal,

My verdict is looking better.

I broke the bank down into sister pairs. I matched as best I could the 6V's sisters, into pairs with the closest SPG and resting voltage.

I started with the worst pair. First I discharged them by 100 amphrs at a 30 amphr discharge (their rating is 240 amphrs) I then set up a recharge bulk/with an absorption voltage setting of 14.8 amps until the amps dropped to 4, or 8 hrs which ever came first.

I then discharged them again this time 200 amphrs, and set up the same charge cycle as above. Then I gave them a 3 hr rest, and then hit em with a equalize charge at 15.8 volts X 13 amps for three hrs, I took a couple of SPG's but I discontinued the EQ, when the bats hit 90 degrees. I then disconnected them, and after a 48 hr rest the SPG on all cells were a high of 1.30 and a low of 1.285, after temp correction .004 per 10 degrees below 77Fh they all ranged with in the original man.specs.  resting voltage was 12.8

That's not bad, considering the lowest cell, when I started this process was 1.110, un-corrected.

So I then hit the other 2 pair of sisters, with an adjusted discharge/charge cycle as above, with an EQ following...all cells register at or above the manufacture specs.

So I build the bank back in a series/parallel bank, as before(720amphr X 12 volt nominal), then I did a 10 amp discharge on the bank, the resting voltage after 36 hrs is 12.3, with an amps out of 360 amphrs...considering the bat temps are 54 degrees, I think this is respectable for an 8 year old set of bats.

We leave tomorrow for a 3 day, away from shore power vacation. I'm thinking these bats may have a couple of years yet...but I'm holding my breath.

I haven't any experience with DEKA's, I have read many with good experience. We don't have a dealer here in Seattle that I know of. I have used Trojan's, Interstate, and Dyno's...plus a couple of off brand names that the customer just had to have bc of price(those have never worked out).

If I spec the bats...it's most likely going to be Trojan, only bc they have stood up 10-1 out of the other brands  I have installed. I want to try some of Dyno's 6 volt cell's...but to date I haven't.

I'll report after the Holiday.

lloyd

[hal]

That good news that you were able to save them.  

The warehouse for Deka is in Tacoma, they have a delivery service twice a week.  

The Dyno batteries have always sparked my interest.    Do to height restrictions I need 8D's..

Enjoy the 3 days off!

[Lloyd]

Well the 3 day test is done. This bank isn't going to the boneyard this year.

After the the first 24 hrs without charge the bank was discharged by 100 amphrs, and the the voltage was 12.5, even with a total discharge of 199 amphrs the voltage never dropped below 12.5.

I haven't done a pukert load test, but what I believe happened to this bank is that it became severely electrolyte stratified...which will cause some sulfating on the bottoms of the plates.

My original load test confirmed the bats when new had a 1.22 pukert factor(a perfect bat would be 1.0-1 pukert factor). I'm guessing now but I'll bet the pukert factor is above 1.3 and most likely near 1.4.

Due to the fact that the bank is large, and our loads are light it won't adversely affect how these bats will service our loads.

So they live for at least another season.

Lloyd

[squarebob]

So the worst you can now be charged with is "attempted negligent homicide".

A case worker will be out to see you later in the week!!

A few hours of community service here at Microcogen and all will be well.

Bob