over (the grid) unity

[Lloyd]

A new conspiracy theory....just out.

The Hague has put a stop to capacitor battery banks.

For fear it will upset the world economy.

As a result of charging a capacitor bank, from the grid, the meters will fail to register the consumption.

As no circuit exist, because there is no circuit...all electrons flow to the capacitor....absent the neutral, or earth???

=unity over the GRID

[admin]

Please see rule #11

http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=4.msg4#msg4

the discussion of overunity has no place on an serious forum, there are ample places on the net to fill that need
and this one is not one of them.

if this topic has been mistitled, and there is some reference to reality, then post a link to the story, and rename the
thread.

if we start to entertain discussion about overunity topics we will lose credibility very quickly among the more serious member
and those that might become future members.

admin

[rcavictim]

I agree that this thread was mistitled.  BTW, the information given is incomplete and as stated might also supposedly lead to the banning of radio broadcasting over the air...because no circuit exists.  Nonsense!  Current flow in and out of a capacitor is easily registered on a meter.  The curious thing is though, it won't register on a centimeter or a millimeter.  The same minds that came up with the Hague allegedly banning capacitor battery banks ought to try and solve this puzzle first!

[Lloyd]

RCA,

I'm not an EE,,, but from what I read...the capacitor, when being charged does not conduct to the the earth or neutral, so the meter doesn't read. Then when it discharges it doesn't conduct on the line side. So it creates an opportunity to fool the meters from the grid....

When a capacitor is used in it's normal capacity it's miliamps, but when used as a bat bank it could supply much larger amp load, without the meter spinning, it would just create heat on the line, which the grid isn't set to measure.

I'm not saying it works...but... if it did, a person may be able to develop a capacitor bank that, could cheat the grid...

The thing is all people that pay the grid, would end up paying for the cheats....the same as we do with Credit Cards.

Lloyd

[AdeV]

I'm not an EE,,, but from what I read...the capacitor, when being charged does not conduct to the the earth or neutral, so the meter doesn't read.

Actually, they do conduct, but more power goes in than comes out until the capacitor is saturated, at which point it simply conducts with a slight resistance. It will continue to conduct when the power source is removed, until it is depleted, as you know.

As such, you could never stop your meter from reading something. I guess if your meter is detecting power flow to earth, then you could fool it with a capacitor and a simple circuit (to prevent discharge to earth through the meter); but I can't imagine any meters working like that, I'm sure they read on the hot side?

Also: A capacitor will not work without a completed circuit! You can try this out yourself; either buy or salvage a capacitor, make sure it's completely discharged by shorting it across a nail or somesuch. Now put the +ve lead onto the +ve terminal of a 9v battery. Wait 30-40 seconds. Now check the capacitor for charge; you'll find there's none.

[rcavictim]

LLoyd,

You made mention of capacitors used as battery banks.  That may be THE device that finally makes electric vehicles practical by eliminating the big problems with current battery technology.  This is what I assumed you meant because of your specific choice of words.  Any regulatory agency that would shut down development in this area might as well just turn off everybody's lights and close the grocery stores right now while they are at it.  To do so would be a crime against the future of humanity (looking iffy anyhow) of unparallelled proportions.

The idea of using a capacitor, or a bank of them to fool the utility recording meter device is obviously a totally different matter and is of course an illegal activity subject to penalty of law if you are successful.  Believe me, the engineering behind these power consumption meters is very sophisticated and not easy to beat.  Putting capacitors in the circuit anywhere you want will not 'fool the meter'.  The idea, if it worked and it doesn't appear to, would be to skew the phase of the current to the voltage so that they were no longer tracking.  A capacitor can produce a 90 degree leading phase shift in the current in an AC circuit.  An inductor can do the same but in the other direction up to 90 degrees.  Commercial users of electricity that create a lagging power factor with large inductive electric loads like motors or large numbers of inductive fluorescent lighting ballasts are actually encouraged by the utility to install 'banks of capacitors' across the line for power factor correction.  This reduces the unwanted heating of the utility wires.

There is no conspiracy here.  Power meters based on the principle of the rotating Faraday disc  geared to a numerical turns counter display have been around most of the past 100 years.  Only relatively recently have totally solid state digital 'smart meters' been introduced.  I'm afraid that what is inside these is a mystery to me only because I have my plate so otherwise full with stuff I need to do I haven't bothered to find out and I really don't care anyhow because I have been spending every dime I have and every hour I am able to work to try and get those damned meters removed from my property entirely!!!!  However...I wouldn't be surprised if they had a signal code that they send the utility as part of their recording and reporting capability that might say "Hey, the customer is fucking with the power factor, maybe he's trying to steal power!"  

[Lloyd]

RCA,

I always love your visual maps.

AdeV & RCA,

I lost the link to the ee form, that this is on, I know I book marked it. Just have to find that bookmark.

One off the EE's explained it that due to, the capbank absorbing, almost nothing going back on the neutral, which the meters depend on for their circuit.

Then discharging into a separate system voltage off the grid (like we do with a 12,24,48 volt bat bank). You are right that it would be stealing, and that was the worry. That' might be the reason of the change to digital meters.

It would also cause a gfci in the circuit to trip...some boats use these as mains breakers.

Lloyd

[a31ford]

OK, for what it's worth......

I remember a circuit that used a cap as the voltage snubber, in a LED readout, (instead of a resistor), the thing that the circuit designer said about the cap. is that it would NOT heat the same way as a resistor as a snubber, the process detailed something about the 60 cycles would take the cap "X" time to charge, so one could use the charge time through the resistance of the LED readout (assuming the portion of current the dispaly used as "Y" time constant, therefore X and Y can be used as a calculation of currnet requirement vs. charge time @ 60hz.) SO, what came out of it, was effectively a non-heating voltage devider circuit for quite a high amperage load.

Where I'm going with all of this is :

The Cap "sees" current as inrush/charge time, since it then discharges during the 0 cross of the AC cycle, ad restarts again in the opposite cycle, it is effectively a heat "null", BUT voltage reducer.

It still takes current to run the circuit (Cap portion I'm speaking) so the thing here is that this is NOT an inductive load, rather a resistive.

Someone said in a previous post that you could charge a cap but needed a circuit to keep it's charge.... NOT correct, we use to throw charged cap's at each other some 30 years ago in electronics class (with the leads bet over the sides so one would make the connection with their hand..... "SNAP" your fingers would go numb for about a minute or so....)

[rcavictim]

OK, for what it's worth......

I remember a circuit that used a cap as the voltage snubber, in a LED readout, (instead of a resistor), the thing that the circuit designer said about the cap. is that it would NOT heat the same way as a resistor as a snubber, the process detailed something about the 60 cycles would take the cap "X" time to charge, so one could use the charge time through the resistance of the LED readout (assuming the portion of current the dispaly used as "Y" time constant, therefore X and Y can be used as a calculation of currnet requirement vs. charge time @ 60hz.) SO, what came out of it, was effectively a non-heating voltage devider circuit for quite a high amperage load.

Where I'm going with all of this is :

The Cap "sees" current as inrush/charge time, since it then discharges during the 0 cross of the AC cycle, ad restarts again in the opposite cycle, it is effectively a heat "null", BUT voltage reducer.

It still takes current to run the circuit (Cap portion I'm speaking) so the thing here is that this is NOT an inductive load, rather a resistive.

Someone said in a previous post that you could charge a cap but needed a circuit to keep it's charge.... NOT correct, we use to throw charged cap's at each other some 30 years ago in electronics class (with the leads bet over the sides so one would make the connection with their hand..... "SNAP" your fingers would go numb for about a minute or so....)

A31ford,

Your use of the term "voltage snubber" is incorrect and deceiving. True, capacitors are used in some circuits as snubbers to clamp or snub peak transients of high frequency nature. Reducing commutation spikes in SCR power supply circuits is a common application for snubber caps. Capacitors manufactured specifically for snubber use are made with low loss non-polar dielectric, typically polypropelene, and have low series inductance.  They are a premium capacitor. Your described application is that of a "voltage divider or reducer".  I have on occasion picked a series wired capacitor to run something off the 120 VAC mains that normally required a low power step down xfmer.  Neat trick.  It is not a choice if your load requires galvanic isolation from the mains.  You can use common metalized film mylar dielectric capacitors in these low power circuits.

Another neat trick using capacitors is in the unique case where you might have a 220 volt rated blower fan or fractional horsepower single phase motor and you want to operate it on 120 VAC.  By careful (trial and error) selection of the value of a series connected capacitor you might be able to resonate the cap and L of the motor to become a tuned circuit at the mains frequency which will significantly raise the terminal voltage seen on the motor.  This makes that motor spin as though it was powered by a real 220 volt source!  This can be handy!

[M61hops]

For what it's worth...    I have looked inside a few electric meters and in the ones I've seen the neutral wire doesn't go through the meter!  On 220V models just the hot leads run through the meter windings and the neutal wire goes around the meter terminals right to the neutral buss bar.  On a 120V meter just the hot leg goes through the meter windings and the neutral leg just has a metal jumper bar connecting the terminals together inside the meter case.  The meters both look the same at a casual glance and both fit into the standard meter socket base.  Also, I have heard of people using capacitors and a blower motor to make a tuned L C "tank" circut so their electric meter won't move but they can keep the air in their home circulating through the AC ducts and their electrostatic dust filters.  I don't know how well that actually worked but sounds good.                 Leland