C.E. Niehoff 1602 Dual voltage 14v @50a 28v @400a

[RJ]

At this point, this project is at it's part collection/design stage. Any input on suggested parts are welcome. The plan behind this setup is to have a variable or at least a stepped speed generator that will also have reclaimed heat capture. At some point I may convert my home to off grid which is part of the reason I have decided to go with an alternator setup as opposed to a conventional 60hz AC generator. At 10kw split phase inverter will be used to convert the DC voltage to 60hz 240v AC. This unit can be used to charge a large battery bank in the future, although initial plans call for just a small storage battery bank to act as a small load buffer. The prime mover will be a Lister CE two cylinder diesel engine rated at 16hp at 1200 RPM. These engines run comfortably down to the 400 RPM range and utilize a fully pressurized gear driven lubrication scheme. The power curve seems to be pretty much linear. The alternator that has been selected, mostly based on availability is a military spec C.E. Niehoff 1602 alternator. A brushless alternator that is capable of 400a at 28v. Equating to about 11kw of output, more then my prime mover is capable of producing. This will allow a good safety factor.

At this point I'm going to begin the testing phase of the alternator. I'll drive it with a small 1/2hp electric motor via belts to get an idea of how it acts at different RPMS. 

Specs on the alternator are included below.









Below are a few more documents on the alternator. Pics of the unit will follow.

[RJ]

Pics of the 1602, one heavy SOB. About 150lbs with the crate. I figure about 130lbs alone.

As packaged, new unit.









Cover removed.

[thomasonw]

Wow.  Now, THAT is an alternator!

I love the lifting eye-bolt in the side of the case - must come in handy 

[Lloyd]

At this point, this project is at it's part collection/design stage. Any input on suggested parts are welcome. The plan behind this setup is to have a variable or at least a stepped speed generator that will also have reclaimed heat capture. At some point I may convert my home to off grid which is part of the reason I have decided to go with an alternator setup as opposed to a conventional 60hz AC generator. At 10kw split phase inverter will be used to convert the DC voltage to 60hz 240v AC. This unit can be used to charge a large battery bank in the future, although initial plans call for just a small storage battery bank to act as a small load buffer. The prime mover will be a Lister CE two cylinder diesel engine rated at 16hp at 1200 RPM. These engines run comfortably down to the 400 RPM range and utilize a fully pressurized gear driven lubrication scheme. The power curve seems to be pretty much linear. The alternator that has been selected, mostly based on availability is a military spec C.E. Niehoff 1602 alternator. A brushless alternator that is capable of 400a at 28v. Equating to about 11kw of output, more then my prime mover is capable of producing. This will allow a good safety factor.

At this point I'm going to begin the testing phase of the alternator. I'll drive it with a small 1/2hp electric motor via belts to get an idea of how it acts at different RPMS. 

Specs on the alternator are included below.

RJ,

Me thinks you have a poorly matched driver.

At the efficiency of the alternator at your speeds 16 hp driver, you are going to be at about 12 hp output on the alternator curve. most likely less then 7.5 KW.  Worse then that you will be at the max torque of the alternator curve, and bc you will have to belt drive this thing, all shafting and belt interfaces are going to be the weakest link. Also you are going to have to find a way to provide an additional induction cooling for the alternator, bc at the speed you will run the alternator it's internal fan cooling will not be enough.

I don't think you will be able to get enough resolution in your speed range to have a very effective control because you will be at the steepest curve of torque, hp, and amps out. The Niehoff regulator is good at driving live loads from at a stabilized battery voltage near full, but is a poor choice as a battery charger. Also your going to have to have a fall-over limiter on your load side so that loads can never exceed the 7.5 KW.

Lloyd

[RJ]

RJ,

Me thinks you have a poorly matched driver.

At the efficiency of the alternator at your speeds 16 hp driver, you are going to be at about 12 hp output on the alternator curve. most likely less then 7.5 KW.  Worse then that you will be at the max torque of the alternator curve, and bc you will have to belt drive this thing, all shafting and belt interfaces are going to be the weakest link. Also you are going to have to find a way to provide an additional induction cooling for the alternator, bc at the speed you will run the alternator it's internal fan cooling will not be enough.

I don't think you will be able to get enough resolution in your speed range to have a very effective control because you will be at the steepest curve of torque, hp, and amps out. The Niehoff regulator is good at driving live loads from at a stabilized battery voltage near full, but is a poor choice as a battery charger. Also your going to have to have a fall-over limiter on your load side so that loads can never exceed the 7.5 KW.

Lloyd

Lloyd,

The alternator will be belt driven, at this point I'm thinking in the range of 3:1-5:1 Some experimenting will be in order. For example, with a 3:1 I might see a minimum of about 1800 RPM at the alt. But I would only be loading the alt at about 25% rated capacity, or 100 amps. (2.8 kw). Fully loaded the engine would ramp up to 1200 RPM and spin the alt at 3600RPM. Per the planned designed the engine will only be slowed down when load reaches a specific set point. This will allow the engine to still be loaded at a given sower set point.  No issued with using large pulleys on both the engine and alternator side. For instance I can easily work with a 6 inch pulley on the alternator and drive it right off the 24" flywheel giving me a 4:1 ratio.

Initially I have no intentions of using this to charge a large battery bank, and when/if that time does come to fruit I have no problem with switching it out to a Balmer 3 stage type regulator.


Regarding cooling, I can't say for sure if I will have issues here, given that these are mil spec alternators designed to run under the hood of a vehicle in the middle of the desert I don't think this will be a huge issue. The fan at the rear of the unit is pretty large. They are designed to run on diesel engines that don't see a ton of RPM fluctuation. I think spinning the Alt faster then it needs to will simply result excessive fan loss do to friction.

Will see how it works out, I'm pretty early in the stage of this project so if I need to change it up as I go, not a problem.

[jcyoungs76]

how did this build work out? im thinking about the same alternator

[RJ]

how did this build work out? im thinking about the same alternator

Sorry for the late reply. As with so many things in life it got put on the back burner. I still have 4 of the alternators so plan on using them, either that or a PMG that I have as well. Hopefully in the next year or so I can get to it. I'm getting ready to build another house so have my hand full at the moment.

[mobile_bob]

had some time to dig around and found this topic

apart from the 110-555jho prestolite/leece neville this niehoff alternator fascinates the hell out of me

the first ones i saw were in tacoma about 15 or more years ago, at the time they were in a repair shop from some sort of bus company
they came with custom made fiberglass suitcases,

i  saw one torn down, and found that they have dual stators,  6 phase total, heavy wound stators,
i wanted to get my hands on one for modification and testing, at the time they told me the core charge was something like 1500 bucks for one
so i opted out.

now i see them on ebay for a small fraction of the core charge,

i would really like to get my hands on a 24 volt version, split the stators, rework them to the white paper design, and run them with the 24 volt stators at 48volt nominal

i really think these animals could exceed the 80% efficiency at 57.6volt dc and put out maybe a couple hundred amps or more.

life is too short and my back is all but gone, the plight of man...

anyway back on topic

just thought i would drag this up and see if you did anything with the alternators?

bob g

[RJ]

Good to hear from you again.

I still have these and they're still in the crates. I ended up moving 1000 miles south. I still plan on getting around to hooking one up to my lister 12/2. I was planning on sticking with the 24v that is standard then running that into a small battery bank to work as s buffer then into a 24v inverter. This would give me a nice variable speed generator. 48v would open up a lot more options in regards to inverters for sure. If you get one of these I very much would like to see how you modify it.

Thanks for the bump!

-RJ

[RJ]

This guy has an interesting setup, using the alternator I have above.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzIf6ifjwN8

[veggie]

RJ

That alternator is a total BEAST. I love it.
I can only imagine the cost 
Nice find.

veggie

[RJ]

RJ

That alternator is a total BEAST. I love it.
I can only imagine the cost 
Nice find.

veggie

I picked up 4 of them , I don't recall what I paid as it was many years ago. I'm just not sure weather to go this route and modify them for 48v or use a big pmg I picked up from Henry that is already 48v.