Expected life expectancy from WMO?

[davidgr]

Dr D, money no object?.....please do send some my way

Crofter, I understand what you say and bobg's idea for testing is the most applicable so far that anyone has brought up. But I just dont have the time to go to these lengths and will let the engine run until it makes new noises. We have so much other work to do that we cant justify spending the time on an engine that only cost us less than half the price of a 6-1 and has outlasted all Listeroid's we and others here ever had. And all these engines work hard for a living here in remote locations for the most part. The engine owes us nothing at this stage and its a real little gem.

Perhaps someone will post how the test WMO in the correct manner and show what is causing wear. Until then I am happy to give what input I can and claim nothing other than these are my experiences and I am no authority on the matter. I can say with the greatest authority.....the Changfa has and continues to save me a lot of money!

David

[quinnf]

It'd be interesting to know why it is that Cummins approves of burning WMO in their engines, but only up to 10%.  I wonder how they arrived at that figure and whether that might be published somewhere in the automotive literature. 

Quinn

[mobile_bob]

we were told that the 10% limit had to do with injector issues,
when the limit came out the cummins engines all used cam actuated injectors
i never asked, but my bet is anything over 10% might well have put too much stress on the cam,
lifter, pushrod, rocker and injector due to higher viscosity?

the newer engines with the bloody expensive electronic injectors, i am not sure if they allow
for even 10% mix, even if they did, i wouldn't do it.

bob g

[Crofter]

Hey David, I agree with your cost / benefit approach. There may be some inherent differences that favor the Changfa over the Listers and Listeroids. Even the geometry of the combustion space and the pattern of the injectors can have a big influence in an engine and most certainly in a furnace. A particular line of "so called" waste motor oil could also be particularly damaging. Mobile Bob and others have spoken of using motor lube oil with a known history. EP oils and now hydraulic and trans/hyd./gear oils have compounds that do undergo changes at elevated temperatures.  That is the kind of thing that could be influencing different observations; it doesn't require any conspiracy to account for it.

In no way was I suggesting sloppy science in your project. It would take strict controls indeed on a large number of parameters to come to any kind of a scientific conclusion on this topic. I just point out a few occasions where the discovered answer was not the obvious one.

I am interested in the outcome of this since I could easily acquire the used oil from a fleet; presently my 10-1 serves as backup with only intermittent limited hours and I would not compromise that when wood is more convenient for heat.

[rbodell]

Thanks for chiming in rbodell. Spencer has an interesting WMO project in-work and hit a snag from what appears to have been from excessive additive ash. Rather than analysing the data and determine appropriate adjustments he started screaming the sky is falling and posted all over the Lister world that pouring WMO in your tank is like pouring battery acid on your johnson, don't do it and you will be doomed if you do. Some of us started questioning the rationale behind this action and it all went down-hill from there. We were trying to provide possible course's of action to get his project back on track but it was like me talking to our donkey. That 'ol donkey doesn't listen and his mind is made up, he ain't a'moven.

Take care and drop in from time to time.
Dave 

Actually it was all the nay-sayers that convinced me to buy this engine and try it out. Like what was the worst that could happen? buy a set of rings and fuel system rebuild? The best way to get me to do something is to tell me I can't do it LOL. I was more interested in finding out why it wouldn't work other than just because somebody who never did it said it wouldn't work. 

[buickanddeere]

Depends on how fine the fuel is mechanically filtered. How much ash there is in the WMO? Hot hot the engine is operated at? Type of lube oil and how filtered it is. How efficient is the air filter?  Is th engine operating at 85% power or 101% power?

[rbodell]

Depends on how fine the fuel is mechanically filtered. How much ash there is in the WMO? Hot hot the engine is operated at? Type of lube oil and how filtered it is. How efficient is the air filter?  Is th engine operating at 85% power or 101% power?

\

All that stuff makes little or no difference other than filtering. You forgot to mention the PH and moisture which I treat the waste oil for too.

After 7 years and several thousand hours of running on a brand new engine I purchased just for this project while feeding it anything that remotely resembled oil including burnt transmission oil, stale gasoline and stale diesel fuel, crude oil, hydraulic oil, paint thinner, kerosene, and some stuff that you had to look twice to for it to even look close to oil. I have run it at running speed down to 300 rpm. It actually looks better inside than you would expect running on diesel fuel. The manufacturer recommends removing the head every 700 hours to scrape the carbon off the piston. No carbon collects on the piston running on waste oil. I run straight 30 wt in the summer and 5w30 in the winter so I can still hand crank it. It still has the original injectors and injector pump it came from the factory with. In fact it also has the original 10 micron fuel filter in it. The only thing I do is run it through a centrifuge, remove moisture and bring the PH down to neutral.

[cujet]

I'd like to resurrect this thread, mostly because I had a thought about the discussion on ash.

Very high performance 2 stroke engines, such as dirt bikes and Kart engines have better longevity with additives that produce ash. In fact, those additives are some of the very same additives 4 stroke and diesel engine oils contain. The combustion event produces ash deposits, which must be scavenged out. Even so, it's possible to use conventional 4 stroke motor oil in 2 stroke engines with very good results. In fact, up until the 1960's it was common to use 30W or 40W oil (with additives) in 2 stroke engines.

I don't know what to make of this and the relationship to diesel engines.

Maybe it's the micro particulates that cause the wear and not specifically the additives.

I've used WMO in diesel engines with OK results. (VW diesel rabbit) However, the oil had settled for years and I drew from the top of the barrel. At the bottom of the barrel was a thick, hard sludge that contained the wear particulates from many engines.

[billswan]

cujet

I don't post much anymore but do try to read at least some of what is posted and this thread sure brings back memories. Went back and reread the first few posts and noticed that was when spencer was still posting. He sure was adamant with the fact as he seen it that WMO was a better fuel for waste oil fired heaters than diesel engines. And I see it about the same way. I sure won't argue like he did but he was right at least in slow speed lister like engines.

Not sure why some engines seem to tolerate WMO better but lister-oids sure don't. At least not the ones that are pushed to the limit. as I did with both of my single's.

I will say that  posters like rbodell do seem to have better luck but he was treating his oil to reduce acid as best as i can remember and after seeing a video of his engine running I will say it was running at a lower power out put level. I am thinking that is causing his better results.

Now back to my experience with burning wmo in my boiler that heats my farm shop. I go through about 1400 gallons a year and I can attest to the fact that there is sure a lot of ash in 1400 gallons. I remember the post that spencer put up showing the bucket fulls he pulled out of his boiler, it works the same for me on this side of the pond.

I will speculate that if a car type of diesel was run on a high % of wmo and was driven casually it might work. But take the same engine bolt a gen head to it and push it to 80 to 90 % full out put it might suffer the same fate as the single's I spoke of above.

But as others have argued they have had better results..................

Billswan

[rbodell]

cujet

I don't post much anymore but do try to read at least some of what is posted and this thread sure brings back memories. Went back and reread the first few posts and noticed that was when spencer was still posting. He sure was adamant with the fact as he seen it that WMO was a better fuel for waste oil fired heaters than diesel engines. And I see it about the same way. I sure won't argue like he did but he was right at least in slow speed lister like engines.

Not sure why some engines seem to tolerate WMO better but lister-oids sure don't. At least not the ones that are pushed to the limit. as I did with both of my single's.

I will say that  posters like rbodell do seem to have better luck but he was treating his oil to reduce acid as best as i can remember and after seeing a video of his engine running I will say it was running at a lower power out put level. I am thinking that is causing his better results.

MY ENGINE RUNS AT FULL POWER WHEN GENERATING ELECTRICITY OR IT WOULD NOT PRODUCE ADEQUATE POWER. I DO RUN IT SLOWER WHEN JUST CHARGING BATTERIES

Now back to my experience with burning wmo in my boiler that heats my farm shop. I go through about 1400 gallons a year and I can attest to the fact that there is sure a lot of ash in 1400 gallons. I remember the post that spencer put up showing the bucket fulls he pulled out of his boiler, it works the same for me on this side of the pond.

I CAN NOT "SPECULATE" ON HEATING WITH WMO, I HAVE NOT DONE IT AND IT HAS NO CONNECTION TO RUNNING AN ENGINE ON IT.

I will speculate that if a car type of diesel was run on a high % of wmo and was driven casually it might work. But take the same engine bolt a gen head to it and push it to 80 to 90 % full out put it might suffer the same fate as the single's I spoke of above.

WHEN PEOPLE "SPECULATED" WITHOUT ACTUALLY RUNNING IT ON WMO, THEY SAID I WOULD RUIN MY ENGINE. AFTER ABOUT 8 OR 9 YEARS WHEN I PULL THE HEAD EVERYTHING HAS FACTORY SPECS. THE FUEL SYSTEM HAS HAD WMO IN IT FOR THE SAME LENGTH OF TIME. IT WORKS PERFECTLY.
THE ONLY THING DIFFERENT IS THAT YOU DO NOT HAVE TO REMOVE THE HEAD AND SCRAPE THE CARBON OFF THE PISTON AS RECOMMENDED BY THE MANUFACTURER. IT NOT ONLY DOES NOT FORM, BUT THE CARBON IN THE WMO (WHICH MAKES IT BLACK) IS ALSO BURNED.

DURING MY RESEARCH I CAME ACROSS A GUY THAT WAS RUNNING A GM 671 DIESEL TRUCK ENGINE ON WMO FOR OVER 30 YEARS. IN THE BEGINNING, HE DID NOT TREAT THE WMO OTHER THAN A RAG FILTER AND THE PH CAUSED DAMAGE TO THE INJECTORS AND HIGH PRESSURE PUMP AFTER ABOUT A YEAR. ONCE HE TREATED THE PH HE HAD NO MORE PROBLEM WITH THE INJECTOR PUMP AND INJECTORS.

I WON'T BE "SPECULATING" ABOUT RUNNING IT IN A VEHICLE EITHER, AS SOON AS I GET MOVED TO ALASKA, I WILL BE GETTING A DIESEL VEHICLE AND TRYING IT MYSELF.

WHEN THE "SPECULATORS" SAID I COULDN'T RUN AN ENGINE ON WMO I PAID 3,000 DOLLARS FOR AN ENGINE TO FIND OUT WHY. NOW WHEN "SPECULATORS" SAY I WILL RUIN A CAR ENGINE WITH WMO, I WILL BE SPENDING ANOTHER COUPLE THOUSAND DOLLARS FOR A DIESEL VEHICLE TO FIND OUT WHY. UNLIKE THE "SPECULATORS", I WILL KNOW WHY.

But as others have argued they have had better results..................

Billswan

[buickanddeere]

  It's all about filtration, ash content, how hard the engine is worked without being over fueled and how hot the coolant is.
  Diesel oil for post 2007 engines and SF-2 oil for Detroit Two Strokes are noted for being low ash. Airplane engine oil and oil for NG and LP engines is also low ash.