No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

[SteveU.]

Ouch! BPJ did I start this by mentioning the name Lister CS??
Wasn't my intention to single out this one engine type but to reinforce that the 19teens-1940's into early 50's bigger, older IC engines designed for less standardized designer reformulated fuels were better for much wider floating spec self-made alternatives fuels from a drop in fuel usability standpoint.

Newer 90's and later IC piston engines are still heat engines and can do alternatives fuels also but depending; you may have to do more control system modifing to make your alternnative fuel work. I am now intentionally talking very wide generic here NOT singling out even from spark ignition or compression ignition.
The advantge of the later designs is the sheer numbers available laying around used, cheap with lots of parts still available.

My 12/1 Listeriod that I once owned, had to be specially sourced and cross continent truck shipped. And with it's big/tall towering "tippy" looking aspect ratio; and open flywheels; and booming voice made every single woman in my life frigtened to get within 100 feet of it. What's the value to me for somthing my Wife, three adult Sisters, two adult Nieces will not operate?? You betcha. We guys and a very few woman here do find the ground pounding, thumping, spinning wheels and exhaust smell mesmerizing and even kinnda' seductive.
ANY of these women in my life will/would operate my electric starting RS186 Changfa'ziod,  Miller/Kohler gen-set or the two in near family John Deere diesel tractors.
They will all operate the smaller chainsaws and weedeaters and the older smaller pull-start generators AS LONG AS THEY DO START UP BY THE 3RD PULL.  And four out of the six can target out shoot pistol or rifle us hunter family guys! Three of the six are real comfortable horse woman and cow gals too. So ain't any of them I'd call mousie/woosie. They do look at using more than you actually need to get the job done as "typical male testosterone s-t-o-o-p-i-d-i-z-i-n-g".

On the "made in America (with) parts available from Carquest" a valid point can be made for small gasoline engines.
But ain't been any personal SMALL light diesel engines ever fit this availble to us common USA folk except maybe some very old now super parts spendy fuel hog GM/Detroit Deisels. All others no matter the actual name plate were overseas manufactured. So even if Carquest/NAPA has some of the parts they are really hard to get and spendy.
My regret is back when I could, that I did not buy 3-4 identical R185's to be my own self standing parts source instead of spending on the Listeriod.
I was still mesermarized by the big CS 'Zoid flywheels unwilling yet to admit my mistake.

Now can we get back to talking about actual IC engine thermal-cycle dynamics before this turns into one of those Ford/Chevy, space age electronified gasoline hybrid-electric versus a mechanical diesel, or a  "my dad can whup your dad" time wasters threads?
I will concede "Ain't No such thing as a free lunch!"  applies just as much to no-name a long ocean multi-country cross-boarder away Chinee' vertially use-it, throw-a-way engines and old obscure obsolete for the reality of being able to actually use jut as much as for the idealized unabtainable, never been in production  thermal-cycles engines.
Why use a rare samurai sword or 18th/19th century saber as a working machete, eh?? Just as dumb to try using an oversized un-actual in-use refined overstyled crome plated Hollywood show piece to do any actual work.

Regards
Steve Unruh

[Dualfuel]

Well Steve, sometimes a little controversy perks up the reader... I got several paragraphs out of you, AND a description of some very interesting women (perhaps I need to shop Washington, for a wife...lol!).

So my original intent in writing this was to provide some basic information to any who might be leaning towards the Fish Carburetor, or other some such free energy claptrap. In my ramblings, I suddenly recognized why the Listers are so important...they actually represent the last manufactured engine whose design predates WWI. They represent the time before the shift to short stroke square bore, high speed engines. Their cast iron construction is parallel to why the flat head or valve in block engines survived so long...simple is king when your are manufacturing anything.

As you suggest, Steve, I don't want to get into a pissing contest about engines on this thread, but I will have to start talking about specific engines to tell some more of the story....and I will start with my avatar the Dualfuel Farmall H engine...IH put together some features to turn a 150cid four cylinder overhead valve engine into a WWII tractor engine that could burn some very low volatility fuels. It came with shutters to cover the radiator, a 180 degree thermostat instead of the 130 degree thermostat, and an intake manifold that was surrounded by the exhaust manifold....does this sound familiar yet? The purpose was to allow this engine to burn Tractor Vaporizing Oil, which was purportedly only 3cents a gallon whilst gasoline was 5cents a gallon...also I am thinking it probably was not rationed...
I think of this set up as a very very old adaption onto a "modern" engine....this operating system took fuel and heated it with exhaust  heat, making it volatile enough to ignite by spark. This is something that was originally done back at the turn of the century (1900). These engines, some called semidiesel, and some vapor engines...all had a common denominator....low compression, low power, and low efficiency. They all were popular in places where there was no readily available manufactured gas, or petroleum.
The H engines I have, all burn the "new" gasoline, they also burn a 50\50 mix of gasoline and biodiesel, or kerosene. They also burn bad gasoline, and two have been adapted to burn woodgas. They do not offer much power, but they are not fussy otherwise...(women can operate them).
I use the dualfuel as an example of what can be done when petroleum isn't available...and for some people in lower economic classes, that time is either here or fast approaching. Back in the early days of internal combustion, that was the case as well, and so it becomes extremely important to know how engines ran then.

[SteveU.]

Hi BPJ got your line of thinking now.
Hopefully you have been following the "Lister Vs/ China and other engines" thread. Op there only seems interrested in compresion ignition and fuels though.
The "Listers" refered to here usually are the CS cold start series. History is these DID come about as 19teens modified gasoline engines to diesel. Later post WWII Lister engine lettered series were higher speed more modern designs with aluminum pistons.
Credible story of the "China diesels" (the watercooled horizontal single cylinder ones) is they originated in 1930's Germany -> to late 30's and 40's Japan -> from there left behind in occupied China. Some where back in the dust on this site a fellow put up a link to one of the German engine manufatures with listings on these from the late 1920's into the 1950's. Look exactly the same.
This is all inaccurately stated enough anyone really knowledgeable can chime in.
Very, very credible history the in the the late 1930's early 1940's USA that gasoline production was from crude "simple" distillation only resulting in lots of availble cheap "waste" lighter and heavy distilates available.  The farmer 3 cents a gallon stuff. Then having to become the Allies primary fuels supplier that drove the developement of catalytic cracking reforming refining to be able to convert these into higher value actual designer useable gasolines, later jet fuels. The late 40's, early 50's rail and coal miners strikes then drove even farther the switch to crude into plastics, chemicals, medicines reforming. And the 50's/60's rise of propane (Liquidfied Petroleum Gas).

Fuel versus engine developement is just like elecronics software versus hardware - first one drives then the other pulls.

Biggest split here on the site is between those wanting to idealize design engine/fuels/systems for "everyone" meaning not strickly thier own use that then needing complience and certified specifications versus those wanting to say screw the outside dependincies and I build for ME and Mine. This objectives split effects engine, fuel and power type selection far greater than actual thermal dynamics, engine dynamics, or electrical/electronics ideals.

Pretty obvious with Woodgas engine fuel I fall into the second camp. It has been surprizing to me that the more developed mid-1960's through mid-1990's OHV/higher compression/open dry manifold EFI engines love this DIY fuel much better than the earlier engines. Go figure.

Regards
Steve Unruh