Cooling with radiator gone wrong

[Henry W]

  indian / chinese pump versus volvo made pump,'nuff said

I guess some of you guys might of missed the point. It's ok. What I wanted to point out that there are good pumps made that will last a long time. I would not run a pump that is known for problems like some Chiniese pumps. Why take a risk with a unreliable pump.

I like the Taco circulating pumps that are used for hot water baseboard heating in homes. Simple and reliable. And cartrages are cheap to replace. I seen these run for years with no problems. And when they start going bad you normaly will have lots of noise coming from them for some time before they go.

Bob knows about some good inline automotive water pumps that are used in high end cars. They have been pretty reliable.

Some people can get away with thermal siphon on a Lister 6/1 with no problem.

But running a S195 at or above its rated output puts out much more heat and I see a water pump will help under these conditions. Try pushing a hopper cooled S195 as hard as I did for over an hour and let me know what you think. Steam Pockets could develope in the head and a pressurized cooling system with a pump would take care of that.

Oh quinnf,
I know all about pumps on Ford 221, 260, 289, 289hp K code engine and  302 engines. (Excluding the Boss 302. Wish I bought the used one I found during my High School days)
Your right they would not hold up. I was lucky to get a year out of a water pump on the 289hp K code engine that I stuffed in my 66 fairlane. It seen 7000+ RPM's many times. The fans had no clutches back then and the bearings tore apart untill I changed to a flex fan. Still with the flex fan the life was not much better.

Oh, a friend of mine had a 1972 pinto with a 2.3 turbo with  over 30 lbs of boost running a C4 with a tranny brake kit that ran mid 10's. The tranny held up fine. As long as you know how to build one that will hold up.
You know thinking back. I still have his extra set of Crower Rods here.


Yea, I love the 60's and early 70's Ford Muscle Cars. Dam I wish wish I never sold my 1969 Torino Cobra 428 SCJ with drag pack option That was a fun High School car. Back then I still could buy 104 octaine leaded gas. Boy does time fly.

Anyways, don't let a water pump stop you from finishing your project. There are Isuzu reefer engines running with close to 40,000 hours and still doing thier job. There are many types of good pumps available. Just find the one that will work for your application.

Henry

[mobile_bob]

two points

i think part of Ronmar's 17kbtu is from engine frictional heating, maybe the difference between veggie's
calculated 15.2kbtu and ronmar's 17kbtu?

as for the changfa

in testing the engine efficiency continues to improve right up till you stuff the rack, at which time you are starting
to make some grey smoke, but not black
the hopper cooling system will be under full on boiling and if you were to look down in you will see many little bubbles
and several bigger bubbles, the big ones are burps out of the head cavities
the thermosiphon flow is just not sufficient to clear the heat from the head fast enough using only thermosiphon flow
at high load levels in my opinion
using a small pump and a block off plate the engine can then run with a pressurized system and run hotter than normal
without airpockets and blown head gaskets.

bob g

[Henry W]

Bob I agree,

I believe I pushed the limit and at times went over the limit that  hopper cooling is not able to stop steam pockets forming in the head cooling passages. I had the water boiling to the point that the hopper was acting like an erupting volcano. A pressurized cooling system with a pump is a must when running a fully loaded S195.

Henry

[Jedon]

Anybody ever try running non aqueous propylene glycol? ( NPG+ ) much higher boiling point than water even with no pressure, that's what I run in my twin turbo rotary RX-7 ( 400HP )
Lots of info here but if you think our discussions are heated... http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=99933 

[quinnf]

Well, I'll tell you what I know and maybe you can educate me on how you're using the stuff.  The PPG I know is a heavy, clear syrupy liquid, like corn syrup.  Because it's so viscous it has to be mixed with water to be useful as a coolant.  A 50% solution of propylene glycol in water gives you freeze protection down to -30F, and boils around 220F at atmospheric pressure (which a cooling system isn't), but the price you pay for that is that the specific heat capacity of that solution is only 85% that of pure water.  And the higher the amount of PPG you use, the lower the specific heat capacity becomes, which means you have to pump more coolant through a larger radiator to get the same cooling performance you'd get with water or a PPG/water coolant.  

So I don't understand the advantage of using straight PPG over a PPG/water, or PEG/water coolant.  Especially in high performance applications, about which I admit I know almost nothing.

Quinn

[Henry W]

Hello jens,

Good point made.
Sierra coolant or some type of non-toxic coolant would be my choice if you are using an indirect fired hot water maker with an engine to make hot water. You always have to think safty when it comes to making hot water.

Henry

[Jedon]

Quinn, NPG+ is non aqueous = no water and you can't mix it with water.

[quinnf]

Quinn, NPG+ is non aqueous = no water and you can't mix it with water.

Then we must be talking about different chemicals.  Do you have a link to a site that describes what the stuff is?

[Edit:  Oops, never mind.  http://www.findtheneedle.co.uk/products/1299967-evans-npg45-r-non-aqueous-propylene-glycol-race-engine-coolant.asp  ]

Quinn

[quinnf]

I take that back.  We are talking about propylene glycol.  And while they've apparently cut it with something to get the viscosity down to a reasonable level, the table at the end of this .pdf http://www.sprintparts.triumphowners.com/uploaded/89/480184_26non-aqueouscooling.pdf shows that its capacity to absorb heat is only 66% that of pure water.  So you would need to pump the stuff faster and through a larger radiator to reject the same amount of heat as you would, were you using pure water (which nobody uses, anyway). 

It's probably great for high performance engines, or engines whose design and/or operating conditions predisposes them to boilover or developing localized hot spots.  Any of the CF hopper cooled engines would probably be a good match for this coolant.

Quinn

[Jedon]

Would running a 6/1 hotter than normal be fine if the coolant was okay with it? Since NPG won't boil until much hotter would having it run at say 250F instead of 180F damage the engine? Although it does absorb less heat, the lack of local hot spots should perhaps offset this.
A 50 gallon barrel of NPG+ would be err $1500?

[quinnf]

Don't know.  It's been talked about, but I haven't heard of anyone actually doing it.  There has been talk of using silicone oil, and motor oil, and even diesel fuel as a coolant, but nobody has admitted to having actually tried any of those.  

As to whether the engine would be damaged by running higher temps, remember that Listers and their Indian cousins were intended to be cooled by water only.  Without even a thermostat.  So the areas I'd be concerned about would be the rubber cylinder sleeve o-rings.  They might not be up to such high temperatures.  And if you have one of the aluminum pistoned 8/1s or 10/1s, the higher temperature might cause problems with piston scuffing.  And the higher head temp might burn exhaust valves.  But until someone actually tries, that's just caution speaking.  

Quinn

[Ronmar]

I have seen a few changfa 195's online that look to be thermosiphon.  There is even one detailed buld article where the person used thermosiphon(not sure who the author is though).  He seemd to be happy with thermosiphon from a radiator with up to 5KW of electrical load...  http://martin.nile.googlepages.com/

This one built by JTodd?  Appears to also be thermosiphon, but there is no information about how it runs under load. http://www.loligo.com/projects/changfa/changfa-notes2.html

I have only seen one changfa in person, and never looked in detail at the hopper configuration.  Anyone have any detailed pics or diagrams of a hopper on a changfa?

[mobile_bob]

Ron:

the hopper system seems to work fine up to about 6kwatts output, but
after that there gets to be a lot of boiling and as Henry stated a volcano erupts.

somewhere just above 7kwatts the head gskts give up,

the continous rating is 12hp on a 195 and 13.2 for a one hour rating, my belief
is the one hour rating is based on trying to keep water in the tank.

my main concern with deletion of the hopper was to allow for the addition of antifreeze,
raising the coolant temp a bit with a pressurized system, and the thermosiphon system
just doesn't work in a compact system where the radiator is level with the engine, (at
least reliably)

i don't think that there is anything wrong with a hopper cooled engine used properly, but
you are limited as to how much power you can produce and limited to having to have
the radiator mounted higher generally than what i have accomplished with mine.

also of note
the difference in BSFC of a changfa 195 at 5kwatts ouput is significantly higher than it is at 7kwatts
output, i want the lowest fuel consumption in gr/kw/hr that i can get.

bottom line, if you can live with a 195 producing up to about 6kwatts, and have no size constraints
perhaps a hopper or a plated thermosiphon system is a good way to go,
if on the other hand you are going to push the engine and have other automation and electric controls
attached anyway, using a waterpump and having the necessary temp sensor safties in place might be
a better way to go?

the latter seemed right for my application and i am very happy with it.

its just really cool watching the system  come up to temp, the tstat open and then watch the system
temp being regulated by the radiators thermostatically cotrolled electric fan. pretty cool watching it cycle
on and off and keeping the engine temps ~206 degree's F and having antifreeze and a 10 pound cap in
place, and it is also nice to see the overflow bottle take on coolant when hot and return it to the system
when it is cool,,, just like the big boys do it.

the only thing i want to add is a spin on coolant filter with DCA additive to keep the coolant system clean
and conditioned.

works for me



bob g