Autumn in Southern Oregon

[LowGear]

Aloha Marcus,

I teased somebody on the other site about getting his systems into order but I know many of our brothers (sorry, I've only seen one woman with a Lister and she inherited it and was offering it for sale) are going to enter that part of the universe known as chaos when that temperate zone starts doing her winter dance.

Your thread here is a very subtle "Start Your Engines" reminder.

Casey

[mbryner]

Thank you for the suggestions, Ron.   All good points.   Here are the only pics I have from of the radiator.   Don't have a clue what vehicle it's from.   (There's about 4 inches of insulation and metal flashing around around the exhaust pipe now, so don't beat me up about the temporary exhaust pipe in the pic.)

Marcus

[Ronmar]

Marcus
  Is the radiator expansion tank hose attached to the port near the radiator cap?  If so, that could be a major issue right there.  That port is not at the highest point on the radiator top tank.  Air dosn't go down very well, so I would guess that your upper tank(everything above the port at the radiator cap) is mostly full of air.  This means that the inlet port is probably not completely submerged.  First off, a half full pipe only carries half the water. So whatever portion of the inlet pipe that is not submerged is not carrying flow.  The radiator needs to be 100% full of coolant.

Quick fix.  As the radiator is mounted now, find the absolute highest point on the radiator top tank.  Drill a small weep hole at that point(1/8").  Fluid should immediatly drain from your overflow tank to fill the area in the top of the radiator vacated by the air escaping from the radiator thru the new weep hole.  At least the fluid should flow into the radiator if you removed the inner seal plate on the radiator cap that lets fluid re-enter a radiator from the expansion tank as the cooling system cools.  If not, you can prop the plate open with a piece of toothpic or cut it off/deform it so it does not seal and allows fluid to easilly flow to-from the expansion tank.  Add fluid to the overflow and let it enter the radiator till all the air is forced from the radiator.  Then plug the weep hole.  A sheetmetal screw with rubber washer should work OK. Add coolant to your overflow to reach the desired cold level.  You will need to loosen that screw occasionally and bleed off any air that finds it's way into the radiator.

Does the upper radiator hose reach it's highest point where it connects to the radiator?  If it goes up then down to reach the radiator inlet, you need to raise the radiator till the hose's highest point is where it connects to the radiator. Any higher points ahead of the radiator will be impossible to purge the air from, and that air will reduce flow.  Here is a pic of my upper cooling system.  The highest point in the system is where the upper elbow meets the heat exchanger.  I drilled and tapped the elbow at that point and installed a hosebarb that runs up to my expansion tank.

Once all the air is out, load her up and take her for a spin to see if that improves cooling any:)  If it works good, the long term fix will be to install a hosebarb where that weep hole is and connect that to the expansion tank so it is self purging.  

The radiator looks large enough, but being used, you have no real way of knowing how clear the internal passages are...

[Lloyd]

Marcus,
It looks like you are close on the C/20 charge rate Lloyd recommended. That would be 40 amps and you are at 35. With the assist from solar, even when cloudy, you've got to be there, depending on what you're draw is.

I'm running a similar 6/1 & ST5 to charge my 1055 ah 48vdc battery bank. Charging through the Outback inverters I can consistently put 45 amps into the bank, 50 with the output from the panels. It seems like your system with the direct charge is a bit less efficient than what I'm running. I to am looking for the best way to direct DC charge the batts. To bad there is no Balmer like controller that would control the field on a ST-5 with each of the 4 poles wired through a bridge rectifier. It seems like that would be the most efficient way to go.

Just thinking out loud here, I wonder if a voltage divider on the input of a Balmer controller would work to trick it into outputting 48 volts. IIRC Bob discussed tapping the bank in the middle for a 24v input, but my concern here is unbalancing the bank due to the load from the controller.

Lloyd,
Dude, I guess I'll have to confess to arrogantly assuming I knew how to maintain a battery bank. I'll now make a humble bow to your hard earned knowledge. I'm in the 10-20% daily discharge range on my bank too. And have been doing a monthly EQ as recommended in the battery (Hawker PV-1) manual. In fact the manual says to equalize if a cell has a difference of .020 specific gravity or at least once a month. Do your annual EQ suggestion seems to conflict with the manual. Comments?

Under my charge regime I bulk to 59.2 and absorb for 3 hours. The batts do gurgle during absorption and need water about every 2 months (1 gal per batt) The EQ is to 61v for 3 hours. Comments?

Hi Tom,

First let me say that no matter how much I try to manage my own bank, bat banks are very unforgiving. Just read here http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?PHPSESSID=6t6p16ovladkkffuo0n7eot7h0&topic=1922.0 So in the end it may be easier to give advice, rather than adhering to ones own advice.

That being said, I have been in the bank management for awhile, I probably have read as much text on the subject as BobG has on alternators(now that's saying something), and I have applied that same.

First it's hard for me to advise against the battery manufactures own recommendations of the batteries they build and  market. But sometimes marketing and actual science are not always aligned.      that being said.

The physics and the science of FLA's has changed less then the same can be said about alternators, since the day the bats were actually built in glass jars.

The biggest changes are just refinements, to the actual pasting and grid structures, the biggest changes really don't effect the science of the bats, but more the cases, that were formally the glass jars.

While the formulas, and the method of pasting can improve on the lead anatomy, and the grid structures have been revised to better support the lead anatomy a battery works on one premise.  That conversion process includes the changing off acid to water then back to acid.

Now I have read many manufactures claims of did this or that to improve the  pasting, and the process. I have even read many claims that say they have improved the grid structure to improve the pasting method. BUT I haven't read any claims stating that they have improved the grid structure, that mitigates positive grid corrosion.  

So overcharging, whether by equalizing to often, over temp, and or to high voltage/current during absorption cycle, they result in the same loss of battery life. Constantly overcharging also effects the plates in another way it generates heat that warps the plates, this warping can and does lead to the plate eventually shorting out.

Heat generated in the plates can, and does result from sulfated plates that cause heating, both during the charge and discharge cycle.

The number one KILLER of batteries is plate sulfation, and not far behind is positive plate corrosion.

Battery manufactures speak to the issue that causes the most returns.

Finally I don't recommend the C-20 rate for bulk charge cycle,     especially in L-16's.    I recommend 20-25% of total amp hr. size of the bank, plus enough allowance to cover overhead loads of the system. Conditioned that system is controlled to voltage and current, as well as temp controlled over time during the bulk and absorption cycle. Most manufacture recommend the C-20, not because it's the most efficient way to charge, but it's the most efficient way to tell a customer, uneducated/unwilling to really understand the needs of a battery.

So in Marcus's case, my recommendation would be as follows: 48v bank sized at 800 amp hrs...the time controlled bulk cycle, with temp. compensation charge current should be 800amp hrs X 25% = a low of 150 amps and a high of 200 amps current during bulk cycle, plus enough amperage to cover the average loads that run on the system during the charge cycle. The closer you get to the 200 amps, plus loads, the shorter the run time of the gen.

As long as the charge source is temp. compensated, and voltage controlled during bulk cycle you can't ever apply an overcharge to the bank with these parameters, during the bulk cycle.

It will tickle the toes of the tallest bank.

Running to long, or to high voltage during the absorption cycle(current is self limiting both in the bulk and absorption cycle when the controller is temp compensated) will cause grid plate corrosion, also running an EQ whether it needs it or not will contribute to grid plate corrosion.

Lloyd

[mbryner]

Ron,

Thank you.  Yes, I have removed the inner plate on the radiator cap so it can't build any pressure.   You are right, I should plug the port at the radiator cap and drill a new one at the highest point.  What you can't see in the pic is that I tilted the radiator so the left side is higher than the right, so even if air builds up in it the port at the radiator cap is always higher than the top of the radiator hose.   Still not ideal though, and it's a bugger to fill w/ coolant.   Your points about smooth radiator hose, no horizontal sections, and making sure there is no air in the system are well taken.   I'll work on those first instead of installing a circulator pump.

Marcus

[mbryner]

Lloyd,

Thanks.  This is all great info and I understand better now, but...

When I'm charging at 35-40 Amps with the Listeroid, I'm only at 1/4 of what you're suggesting.   And on sunny days I'd need a second MX80 charge controller and double the amount of solar panels!!!  Yikes.      Maybe I'll have to stick w/ longer charge times for a while and possibly decreased battery life.......

Marcus

[Ronmar]

Well if the radiator is full, other than the lower hose refinements, my next area would be to look into enhancing the airflow thru the radiator.  That bathroom fan airflow is probably only really flowing thru a small portion of the radiator surface.  Better flow could be had by building a shroud over the rad, and adding fans to that shroud blowing outward.  That would put a low pressure across the entire surface of the radiator and pull air thru ALL it's passages...

Oh, I meant to ask, what engine RPM are you running?

To your power issue, having re-read Bobs white paper and the ensuing discussion, I wonder if he got anywhere on his 48V tests?  His white paper test rig was built around a 555 alternator and a 12V Balmar MC612 controller sampling from the middle of a 24V battery bank.  I wonder how a MC624 charge controller(24V version) would fare driving a 555 alternator(or a 24V alternator)in the same configuration, sampling from the middle of a 48V battery bank?  From his testing, the 555 alt would need different diodes to deal with increased operating voltage obove about 28V at the high current and frequency. The 24V alternator may not need this.

MC624 controller:    $330.
555 Alternator:       $230
LN 24V 175A alt:   ~$450   

So 6-7 hundred dollars, and maybe some external diodes for a perhaps more efficient path from engine to batteries...  If it could rival ST generator head efficiencies such as he was seeing, that might be perhaps 3KW direct to the batteries, or 55 amps at 54V from your 6/1 at 650 RPM...

[mobile_bob]

i posted the following last night in the "balancing transformer" topic
apparently i messed up and got it in the wrong place

the post is as follows, and can be found there as well

i am a bit late to the party fella's so bare with me if i repeat something already stated

yes leece neville makes at least 2 units capable of 48volt nominal, however one is designed to do
48volts at 85amps continuous and not really made to be a battery charger, the other is a 54volt AC
unit 3 phase with AC outputs made to drive a special inverter for service trucks.

to my knowledge they are both hard to get, and/or discontinued by leece neville, and when available are very expensive
often well over a grand each.

i have one of each in my collection, and in my opinion neither is capable of the efficiency we need
both being connected star in the stator leads to higher resistance, and being built on the fat core leece
neville means there already is too much copper to keep the resistance down even connected in wye.

my white paper describes running the 555 jho prestolite at 24volts using a mc612balmar which is a 12volt regulator
there is now reason that the 555 could not be pressed into doing 48 volts charging using the same scheme
however one would need to turn the alternator upwards of 6500rpm to do so.  efficiency should exceed 80% and longevity should
be pretty good if you limit to less than 100amps max output.

now before anyone starts moaning about 12volt excitation for a 48volt alternator, bare in mind that both of the leece neville alternators
(48 and 54volt) versions use 12volt rotors!  so there is no reason we can't do the same.

before the move i have been working with a leece neville doing 48volt nominal charging running at 57.6volts dc and 100amps, the machine had to be fitted with a water cooled stator (designed, built and installed by me) in order to run at that level for protracted periods of time. while it works it is too complex for general use in my opinion.

sometime this winter i hope to do more work using the 555 on a 48volt system, which is something i need for my exceltech 48volt inverters anyway.  i will be building and testing using the r175 changfa which is about 6hp so it should be close to what a 6/1 listeroid could do.

bob g

ps. Ron is correct in that the rectifiers in the 555 would have to be replaced with a common 200 peak inverse volt 75amp units, which is easy enough on the older rectifiers but a bit more difficult on the new ones, but it can be done.

[Ronmar]

Bob
   How do you think the 555 would fare using a 24V field drive from the MC624 controller?  Basically following your white paper rig but with 24V drive center sampling a 48V battery bank?  It would sure be simple...

[SteveU.]

Hey Guys
Fascinating direction this thread has taken you started up MarcusB. Especially on the heels of the one OffgridingPat had started. I had hoped you guys could get him attitude adjusted so I could respond there to his IC engine woodgas fueling intent.
Anyhow.
Woodgas fuel generation is by far easiest in big bulk productions of 2-4 hours. Not like a fire up in October and run 'till April woodstove but much more like a big debris burn pile. Ha! Ha! I know you've had a few of those Marcus. SO . . . woodgas fueling an IC engine for constant AC generation is a manual babysitting PITA or has to be highly electronified multiple feedback automated as APL/JimMason's group has now done.
All in all, DC bulk charging using a woodgas generator system running an oversized IC engine spinning high output DC alternators into a battery bank in just shorter bulk recharges SEEMED by last January the most KISS way to go. All of the talk on his thread and here validates that decision.
I DO NOT know diddly about large stationary FLA battery bank optimal charging and maintenance. Fork lifts the closest I get.
Thanks Lloyd and others for this education.
I DO know DC alternators very real world enough to like MB strongly prefer a large cased, big bearing, truck based unit WITH an as good as you can get off board voltage regulator. However . . . 5 years warrantee shop experience in the 80's with Lestec Co's (later Phoenix Gold) actual 1800 watt, small cased, old style open ventilated 12Vdc 145 amp 10 DN (DELCOTRON - Not button dioded SI's!!) units to believe at the lower amps, 24VDC nominal use he was putting to these stock 10 DN units to he was probably getting the hours of service he was claiming.

So . . . after a bulk bank charge from whatever source, IS absorption and float possible through  PV Solar from an amperage/voltage/contol standpoint as OGP was doing and Marcus could do??

Regards
Washington State Steve Unruh

[mobile_bob]

Ron

i personally would not start with the 24volt versioin of the 555 prestolite alternator
the reason being is they made a compromise in the stator in order to get 24volts "and" do so at engine idle

what they did was reconnect the stator to wye from delta, this in effect nearly doubles the stator resistance
and contrary to popular belief the clawpole alternator losses are dominated by resistance rather than frequency (rpm)
and reactance (although there are limits placed by the latter two.

i would stick with the 12volt version for these reasons

1. the 12volt versions are widely available and cost less because of the shear volume of sales

2. the stators are delta connected and low in resistance

3. the 3 step controllers are cheaper if not more widely available in 12volt, although balmars are available in both 12 or 24
but on the surplus market (ebay) the 12volt versions are more widely available.

4. leece neville's 48 and 54 volt alternator both use 12 volt rotors, so there is no reason why any 12volt alternator could not be energized with
12volts and spun up to produce 24, 48 or more volts provided the rectifiers are upgraded.

i wouldn't suggest using a 24volt balmar on a 12volt field, the result would likely be a blown field fuse, and possibly (although unlikely) damage to an expensive controller.

i would have already done the testing of the 12volt 555 alternator had it not been the ratio limitations of my trigenerator, i am limited to
around 4800rpm at the alternator at 1800rpm engine speed.  this winter i plan on setting up another test bed to do the necessary testing
at 48 volts using an r175 changfa i have on hand.... it is close in output to the typical 6/1 so a baseline can be established that would be useful for those using the 6/1 listeroid.

i would expect the listeroid to do a bit better fuel economy than the changfa in the end.

bob g

[d34]

i would expect the listeroid to do a bit better fuel economy than the changfa in the end.

bob g

Someone must have hacked this post and added the quote above.  I dont think Bob admit something like this.  LOL


p.s.  Sorry for interupting a good thread! 

[Ronmar]

Bob
   But how do you get 12V to power the field using a regulator designed for 24V that can easilly sample the middle of a 48V bank, short of a purely custom built regulator?  Your white paper test rig used off the shelf components to drive a 12V alternator and regulator to accurately control the charge of a 24V bank.  How do you do this in 48V? Or are you proposing using a 12V regulator and alternator, sampling 1/4 of a 48V bank, and upgrading the rectifyer diodes to deal with the added voltage?

[mobile_bob]

Ron

i need to write up and updated white paper and clean up what is not clear, so that it is more understandable.

i was in a hurry to publish for reasons i won't go into here.

anyway it goes like this

the engine i test with is a S195m, which is 12volt electric start, therefore i must have a 12volt starting battery and a charging source for
that battery, even though it is quite small and the charge requirement is low, i still must have it.

the balmar can be powered from this 12 volt source and power the 12 volt field of another alternator from the starting battery/charging system the power requirement is under 5amps for a 555 (averages about 3.5amps at 100amps output)

the beauty of the balmar and a few other controllers, is the ability to be powered by a separate source, "and" sample voltage from a completely different source.

so we simply tap into the first 12 volts of the string, mid string for 24 volt system, quarter string for 48

the regulator will then monitor the first 12volts of the string and will regulate (programmable to whatever you like) in my case 14.4volts, this
will provide a total of 57.6 vdc across a 48 volt string or 28.8 across a 24 volt string.

because the balmar draws a few milliamps to sample it does almost nothing to whack out the balance of the string, now if we were to take both power for the balmar and sample too as common regulators do, we would soon have an unbalanced string with the first 12volts being lower than the rest of the string, because of the 3.5 amp draw.

i have done this successfully with a 24volt battery bank with a 12 volt balmar and a 12 volt 555 alternator
i cannot do it with the 555 on my trigen because i am short about 1000 rpm, so the voltage won't climb enough , so

i went with a leece neville 175amp alternator, built the water cooled stator and was able to get the 100amps at 57.6vdc
(actually i can go well up over 70vdc on batteries that are too small and junk, that is scary as hell)
the point being the system works, as described, and will work with the 555 so long as the rectifiers are upgraded and the unit
is spun up to ~6500rpm

i have some 8rib pulleys that fit the 555 (and other hd alternators) that are just over 2 inches in diameter, which should give about
a 10:1 step up ratio for a listeroid  therefore the listeroid running at 650rpm should spin the 555 at near 6500rpm, or close enough.

one could use a 24volt alternator and a 24volt balmar and use the same method to charge a 48volt bank, the only issue i would have
with it is lower efficiency due to the alternator stator being connected in wye instead of delta (higher resistance equates to lower efficiency)
so i wouldn't suggest going that route unless you already have the parts on hand.

hopefully this is clearer than mud?

if you have any questions let me know

also to everyone else, before anyone goes this route there are a couple of precautions that must be adhered too, otherwise you toast a balmar, ask me how i know this!!

a lot of time and a substantial chunk of change went into developing this process, as simple as it is there are a few bugaboo's that will grab you and release the magic smoke right now! 

done right there is no problem however, it works wonderfully.

bob g

[Ronmar]

I was wondering if you went that route, sampling 1/4 of a 48V string.

Thanks for the time you put into this Bob, I look forward to the update.