My Thermal Storage Project

[Geno]

I've got the project to the next level and did some more testing today. The container is insulated with cellulose up to the top of the rigid fiberglass. The water temp in the barrels leveled out at about 135°f after 8 hours and there is still quite a bit of insulation to add. I keep getting small bubbles attaching themselves to the heat-ex's in the barrels and they must lower the efficiency. When I shake them a shower of bubbles surfaces. I believe its just the air trapped in the water and will go away with some time. Any other ideas on that?

Thanks, Geno

[mobile_bob]

you might try adding a little liquid dish soap to the system, it will reduce the waters surface tension
and the air bubbles should work their way out of the system.

it shouldn't take very much to do so, certainly not enough to make suds, it only takes a few drop per gallon to
make water flow out on a glass plate, that is what you are looking to happen

so maybe a couple oz per 500 gallons?

start with very little and add more if you need it.

whatever the case, soap is cheap and it won't hurt anything, unless you plan on drinking that water?

bob g

bob g

[Geno]

That is the exact type of simple solution I was looking for. There might be a little Dawn in the kitchen. I won't be drinking the water in the barrels.

Thanks, Geno

[mobile_bob]

i hope it works for you Geno, i am thinking that is should

i remember several years ago an associate of mine started a window washing business, he explained that
just a few drops of dish detergent along with some ammonia made the water layout and cover the glass better.

he told me he learned that from an old timer glass cleaner,

i really never thought about it but afterward i remember spraying some water from an atomizer bottle on a window and it would
sort of bead up and not lay out, i added a couple  drops of dawn, and wow it made the water lay out like automotive paint

then i remembered back in lab class, with microscope slides, when mounting specimens to view, water surface tension made for all sorts
of grief, i don't think we used soap, i think we cleaned the glass slide with alcohol, which then allowed the water surface tension to break
and layout,, but   i can't remember for sure.

it just seems like a little dawn ought to work for your application, please report back how it works out for you.

also another option is diesel engine DCA additive, while its primary use is to ph balance the coolant it also cuts corrosion and it must
also reduce the coolants surface tension and keeps down the formation of bubbles that eat holes in liners on some engine's.
i probably would not use it though if you have a coolant loop interfacing with potable water, the stuff probably if not poisonous is likely
not good for you to consume.

fwiw

bob g

[Ronmar]

You will need to add something to the water to control growth of alge...  Quick check if you can reach into a barrel, wipe your finger around on the inside surface below the water level.  If it feels slimy, it has started...

[mobile_bob]

one used to be able to get the algicide at any water bed store, however they are not as common as they were 25 years ago.

where do you get a suitable algicide these days.

bob g

[Lloyd]

http://www.redlineoil.com/Products.aspx?pcid=10

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=74&pcid=10

techinfo http://www.redlineoil.com/content/files/tech/WaterWetter%20Tech%20Info.pdf



Water has twice the heat transfer capability when
compared to 50% glycol antifreeze/coolant in water.
Most passenger automobiles have a cooling system
designed to reject sufficient heat under normal operating
conditions using a 50/50 glycol solution in
water. However, in racing applications, the use of
water and WaterWetter® will enable the use of smaller
radiator systems, which means less frontal drag,
and it will also reduce cylinder head temperatures,
even when compared to water alone, which means
more spark advance may be used to improve engine
torque.

[Geno]

Bob, I put 4-5 ounces of Dawn in each barrel and it does help. I can now see a steady stream of bubbles coming to the surface all the time but there is still a bit of a shower when I shake the heat-ex's. Time and/or more Dawn should eliminate this.

Ron, I read where Marcus put some bleach in his tank. I think I'll try that and look for some algaecide.  However, this water will be in complete darkness and all the entrained?/entrapped?/dissolved? air should go out through the vent tubes given enough time......I hope. There will be no water added other than some make up for evap out the vent tubes. Won't this dark, anaerobic environment prevent the growth of algae?

Lloyd, that Redline product sounds like it's exactly what I need. I just need 10 gallons of it. What's the secret ingredient

I'm probably going to drain the barrels before the final fill up, spray some bleach in them and wash them down. I'll then fill using the ingredients you good folks suggested.

Thanks, Geno

[Lloyd]

Lloyd, that Redline product sounds like it's exactly what I need. I just need 10 gallons of it. What's the secret ingredient



Thanks, Geno

Hi Geno,

This from the MSDS http://www.redlineoil.com/content/files/tech/WaterWetter%20MSDS.pdf

SECTION 1 INGREDIENTS  ______________________________________________________________________________

DiIsopropyl Alcohol Ether            1-40% CAS       #25265-71-8
Tri Isopropyl Alcohol DiEther       1-40% CAS        #24800-44-0
Sodium Molybdate                     2-10% CAS       #10102-40-6
Tolyltriazole                             1-3% CAS         #29385-43-1
PolySiloxane Polymer
This material is not known to contain greater than 0.1% of any carcinogen required to be listed under the OSHA
____________H_a_z_a_r_d_ C__o_m_m__u_n_ic_a_t_io_n_ S__ta_n_d_a_r_d_ (_2_9_C_F_R_1_9_1_0_._1_2_0_0_)____




Now just just need to put on your mad scientist hat a come up with the recipie.

Lloyd

[Geno]

Umm, uhh, hmm.........I think I'll just use Dawn, I'm already to close to blowing something up or burning something down.

Thanks, Geno

[Geno]

Pretty big mistake

1/15/11 One of the barrels had WVO in it before I repurposed it. I scrubbed it out real well but there was still some skin on the sides. All the soaking in hot water caused this skin to begin to flake off. It would eventually clog the heat-ex. I put a bunch of dawn in the barrels, let it soak in for a few days and began to drain them. I'd go in there with a brush every 10 minutes and scrub the sides. The water got cloudy. I hooked the tip of a heater element and it popped out. The elements are pretty long so leverage is easy to come by. Big leak, big mess, big clean up. The basement sump and pump are right next to it and it's a concrete floor so no harm done there but the whole thing has to be taken down to get rid of the wet insulation.

1/20/11 All taken apart. 3, 5 gallon buckets of wet cellulose insulation and a little bit of fiberglass as well. Not as bad as I thought it would be. I got the barrels really clean on the inside. I'll start putting it back together this weekend. Live and learn.

1/25/11 Mostly put back together. I'm at about the stage I was in post 33.

2/22/11 Been real busy at work. The project is all put back together and insulated. I just have to clean up and insulate the water lines that run to and from the tanks. At this point I can get the water up to about 135°f and then the heat ex's fall flat on their face. That's when the delta drops below 20°f. I know there is still a lot of air in the water and there are probable lots of bubbles on the heat ex's (see post 34) so this may improve when the air is gone. At this time things will work as planned but the water is not getting as hot as I expected.

Thanks, Geno

[Geno]

If that's how it is than so be it. It will still work. Another thing I didn't count on was how even the temp spread in the barrels is. I was expecting much cooler water at the bottom but it didn't turn out that way.

It's time to move on to the next project.

Thanks, Geno