Micro CoGen.

This is an addition to my earlier reply (#17). 

I thought I had provided feedback to the questions asked with the information available at the time but since that post Bob has indicated that his purpose was to try to persuade Bill Rodgers to write another book. A few days have passed and I have been thinking a bit more about my enlightenment – I think if I want help, then I have to help someone to help me. So, here are a few more areas that I would love to see covered by a knowledgeable soul.....(or 2 or 3 souls or....)

Sorry, I think this is going to be a long post. First part will be stuff that I think a Bill Rodgers type may be interested in as points for starters, and then the remainder will be Lister engine related (and any other mind ramblings that occur as I write this).

1.   Is the generator seeing an inductive, capacitive or resistive load when its output is full wave rectified and fed into a grid tied inverter ?
2.   A scope on my generator output shows very flat peaks and troughs on the sine wave. Is this detrimental to the generator in any way ?  Is it detrimental to any other equipment I have running off of the generator at the same time (motors, heaters, pumps, fans, battery chargers) ?(Background : I full wave rectify the output of my 3 phase generator and feed it into a grid tie inverter. With no inverter load the voltage is 560v DC; with a 3.5 kW inverter load the voltage is 500v DC)
3.   What techniques are best used to smooth the ripple of a 3 phase generator that has been full wave rectified to DC. How each technique is selected, what are the implications, and how are the component specs calculated? (Background : My grid tie inverter has a stated maximum of 10% ripple current which I am probably exceeding. This is probably stressing the capacitors of the grid tie front end. 550 - 600v DC is a tough ask for most high capacity, high ripple current capacitors. I believe a choke could also be used but do not know how to specify or calculate requirements – or know the implications).
4.   How to know when to use a snubber circuit to protect contacts ? How to calculate the component values and test that it does the job required ? (Background : I use a number of timers for pumps and heaters. The contacts on the timers are all rated for resistive loads but not all the loads are resistive.)
5.   How to get a solid state relay [mains control input, mains output] to reliably operate an induction motor. (Background: I tried it and the motor operated intermittently with a lot of stuttering – my solution was to remove the SSR and hope the motor did not burn out the resistive rated contacts of the timer!)
6.   Why does my RCD trip when I try to be safe and bond my generator neutral star point to earth rather than let it float? The RCD does not trip when the star point floats.
7.   How to select and properly set up current transformers. (Background: I have installed a 3 phase network monitor in my generator – which requires current transformers to monitor current. The current transformers output are not what I would have expected. Example – the output is substantially different when 1 full turn is used instead of a single pass through; the output from 2 turns is not double that from one turn, etc.)


Now the Lister stuff..
8.   Should injection timing be advanced or retarded (and by how much) when using WVO as fuel?
9.   When fumigating the inlet with natural gas, should the injection timing be advanced or retarded (and by how much)?
10.   Should the injector pop pressure be increased for WVO (and how much)?
11.   Should the injector spray pattern be changed when using WVO?
12.   Would a pintle type nozzle be better for WVO use?
13.   Why do some engines have cold valve clearances four times greater than similar engines in the same range? (Background : 8/1 = 8 thou I & E; 6/1 = 17 thou I and 32 thou E. The pushrods are external and the range tends to run quite cool – so why the difference in clearances?)
14.   What is the IDEAL temperature to run a diesel engine and why ? Is the ideal different when running WVO?
15.   If a glow plug is fitted, should the compression ratio be reduced as starting is now not reliant on cold compression temperatures?
16.   Has anyone with a CS had oil analysis undertaken and published the results?
17.   What quantity of leak-off from the injector is considered to be normal and at what level would it be considered excessive?
18.   What are the pop test standards for a CS? Pressure?  Drip time? Pressure fall-back time? Others?
19.   Spill timing for a 6/1 is 18 – 20 degrees BTDC. I think the 8/1 is around 32 degrees BTDC. The 6/1 is rated for 650 rpm and the 8/1 (I think 800rpm). Does this 150rpm difference really justify such a large advance ? What should the advance be for the clone 1000 rpm machines? What else determines injection timing?
20.   I use a dynamic strobe injection timing test as well as spill timing. Are the two tests directly comparable ? Spill timing shows the point at which the element starts to build pressure whilst the strobe detects the point at which the injector pops (I think). Should there be any allowances made for the timing set points for the two different test methods?
21.   Old timer diesel mechanics tell me that the compression ratio and spill timing should be set to the absolute minimum to do the job. CR should be set to the absolute minimum to start at the coldest temperature likely to be experienced, whilst spill timing should be set by ear so that it is retarded to the point just before the engine stutters. Both (apparently) will protect the big end and provide for maximum life. Is this true ?
22.   With oil costing £20 - £30 for 4 – 5 litres and oil filters at £5 - £10 each, might it be more cost effective to run the oil for a much longer time and accept some increased engine wear ? Components are not cheap but could possibly be paid for by the saving of maybe 10 oil changes ?
23.   What are the main reasons for changing the oil on a Lister CS? Acidification? Fuel contamination? Soot build-up? High / low viscosity? Wear particle build-up? Water contamination? My engine runs the oil hot, runs daily for at least 12 hours and has an oil filter plus I overfill to 5 litres. What can I see / measure that determines when an oil change is due rather than an hour count?
24.   Lister introduced bronze backed big end top shells for engines with the heavy flywheels. Any disadvantages to using them on the spoked flywheel engines?
25.   Is there a DIY / cost effective way of hardening the crank journal of a Listeroid crank marked "EN9"?
26.   What are the requirements for torque specs for cylinder head nuts? I have seen figures quoted between 70– 170 lbft. How is it determined properly?
27.   Why did Lister elect to use a steel main camshaft bearing instead of bronze like that used at the other end? What is the advantage?
28.   I believe that some Lister CS' were operated, unattended, in the Australian desert as telephonic repeater stations for up to a month 24/7 before servicing. How were the rockers and valve stems lubed? What was the oil sump capacity?

1.   what prime mover are you using or planning to use?
JKSon  Listeroid 12/1 (12HP @1000 rpm) running at 650 rpm.
Backup : Lister 5/1 (5HP @ 600 rpm; 6HP @ 650 rpm)

2.   what hp or kwatt (mechanical) output is the prime mover?
Around 6-8 HP. Extracting 4.5 kW (electrical) continuously

3.   what generator are you using? AC only? DC only? or both?
AC only.
TFW 3 phase 10 kVA brushless 400v. Majority rectified to 500v DC and fed into grid tie inverter.
Backup : 1 x STC 3 phase 8 kVA brushed 400v. 2 x 7.5 kVA single phase brushed ST 240v.

4.   how long have you had the unit? 
About 6-7 years. Running for about 4-5 years.

5.   how long does it run or are you planning to run,  per day, week, month or year?
Only runs for the heating season – about 2000 hours per year.
Runs every day from 07:00 to about 22:00.

6.   is the unit used for primary power, backup, emergency, or?
We are grid tied. The unit provides 95% of all power used during run-time and exporting some to the grid. Unit can be used to provide 3 x individual single phases to the house if the grid is down. For extended grid downtime (if TSHTF scenario) – single phase 7.5 kW generators can be used.
(But here in UK we do not get serious grid downtime and maybe outages lasting a few seconds maybe once every 2 -3 years). Have never had to run the set off grid yet.

7.   do you harvest the waste heat and use that heat?  if so for what purpose? domestic hot water production, space heating or both?
Yes. Engine is cooled by thermosyphon (outlet thermostated to 88 degrees C) into a 200L drum. Drum contents circulated through exhaust gas heat exchangers and sent 25m to the house. A flat plate heat exchanger system transfers heat to the house system. This heat is then distributed to heat hot water, radiators and under floor heating systems.  Works well down to about -3 to -5C. Below this value electric fan heaters up to 3 kW or so are used to supplement the heating and still not draw power from the grid.

8.   if you are not harvesting the waste heat, are you planning to do so?  do you have any interest in doing so?
N/A

9.   do you use any form of automation, such as autostart?
No. I have all the parts needed to autostart but at the moment the hand crank start is not too onerous. Additionally, the system runs for 14-15 hours per day unattended and I like the forced attendance to start and stop the engine so that I can see and maybe hear any problems that might occur.

10.   if you do not use automation, would you do so if it were commonly available and reasonable in price?
Maybe at some time in the future – but no real plans. Maybe I will fit the auto start components and continue to start and stop by hand.

11.   how would you rank fuel efficiency of a unit, not very important, somewhat important, moderately important, very important, or most important.
Somewhat important. Not because of cost – as I use WVO (free) but because poor efficiency means smoke, smell, and carbon. Smoke and smell annoys the neighbours and carbon means I have to de-coke the injector, head, and exhaust. It is for this reason that I purposely add in about 3 – 4 kW of natural gas continuously – as I BELIEVE that this helps the unit run cleaner. I can infinitely vary the natural gas addition from negligible up to about 50 - 60 litres per minute. Natural gas costs about 3p per kW hour. I have never decoked the exhaust and the last time I decoked the head was about 3000 hours ago. The injector is decoked every oil change at about 500 hours or so.

now a couple of other questions

12.   where do you find the information you rely on to make decisions about your genset designs?
Nowhere in particular. It seems no-one else does what I do / want to do and publishes any information on it. Everything is trial and error.  Whenever I try to find specific information – I am nearly always frustrated.

13.   do you feel that there is enough information available to you to make good decisions regarding design?
No, but I cannot imagine any scenario where I would answer differently. Can you have ENOUGH information ? It seems to me that you have to have the courage of your convictions and think about and around the subject enough so that you have probably covered off all the scenarios – and then act and learn from your mistakes.

14.   if you are frustrated or find it difficult to find information, what sorts of information would you like to find?
I want the Holy Grail!
Technical facts and specifications
Wear tolerances
Calculations
Torque values
Design guides
Access to knowledge from "old hands" that have worked with these systems all their lives
Tips and techniques
How to do things in an unorthodox way
Basic overviews – not necessarily equipment specific
Sources for spare parts
Questioning of conventional wisdom
Somewhere that I can find the answer to "why?"
...Well, you did ask!

15.   if there was a book available on some facet or facets of power generation for offgrid applications such as what is typical on this forum, what would you find as being a must have or rather what would you like to see in such a book?
Real knowledge and feedback from people who have done it – for a long time.
Tips and tricks that have been learned the hard way over the years.
Basic principles that translate to most eventualities – not just a scenario for a certain voltage / frequency / fuel / battery bank / code / engine / generator / etc.
How to overcome problems


16.   please feel free to add other comments that you might have an interest in sharing.
Whilst I visit these forums most days in the hope of finding inspiration, I am usually disappointed. I regard these forums as public meeting places where people can have a good chat but very poor for the discussion of anything technical or of relevance to me. I find it frustrating when someone posts something that I deem helpful / useful / interesting but within 2- 3 posts you can be sure it has changed to politics / religion / banter / or something that looks to me as inane stuff just to get that person's post count up; whatever – it is going to be off topic. Perhaps more worrying is that sometimes information is plain wrong – even though the information was probably given in good faith. Also frustrating is the number of people who sound authoritative but have never done any of it themselves – what they PLAN to do – maybe sometime – but presented as hard fact.
Despite what I have just said, these forums are probably one of the best sources of information – if you can be bothered to sift through the 98% of off topic stuff!

Marcus - unless the big end cap has only been cosmetically damaged (in which case there should be no need for a machine shop....) you may be on dodgy ground with ANY machining to the end cap and/or rod. Maybe the best solution is to get hold of a new rod and cap. Not what you wanted to hear.....

Any change to the fit of the cap to the rod COULD change the geometry of the shells when assembled. The rod and cap are precision machined to ensure the shells are "nipped" and the correct loading applied circumferntially when in service. The big end and shell combination in association with the crank pin is probably THE most critical interface on these engines after the fuel pump and injector.

Your machine shop will really need to know what they are doing if any material is removed from the cap or rod.

Having said that, these machines are designed to be serviced in the field and are tolerant of small geometry defects and adjustments with a hammer. Make sure the machinist really knows the implications of his actions before you let him loose on the metal.

I guess if I were to write a book on the subject - my advice would be the only tool you should use on the rod / cap combination would be limited only to a hand file - and even then - only to remove dings and high spots and burrs.

HTH

Regards,
Ian

The grease cup uses a 1/8BSP thread - the same as many grease nipples. No need to drill out anything - just take the grease cup and fitting off.

The shaft is keyed to locate around the stud but it is also left and right mirror imaged - so if you currently have holes in the TOP of the shaft - it is incorrectly assembled. Take the fittings off the shaft and turn it through 180 degrees so the notch is still in the right place but the holes (in the shaft) are at the bottom. Then reassemble.

Shaft holes pointing upwards (IMO) are about as much use as a chocolate teapot and WILL lead to rocker arm wear due to insufficient greasing of the arm bush.

HTH

Regards,
Ian

Cannot remember exactly how many hours when I noticed the rocker arm issue. I probably noticed it about 1000 hours but I am sure it was a gradually operating process.

The exhaust rocker is the furthest away from the grease cup on my single. Considered putting a second grease cup on the other end of the shaft (closer to the exhaust rocker) but later decided to work on a single hydraulic grease nipple instead.

Probably another 2000 - 2500 hours since then with no OBVIOUS rocker issues.

HTH

Regards,
Ian

Yep, Jens - I also suffered the rocker arm wear....

I used (and still use) grease but, like you, found that more grease came out of the brass grease cup fitting than was being pumped into the rocker Shaft.

In my case, the rocker arm wear was completely through the bronze bush and into the cast arm itself; it was on the exhaust valve. There was absolutely zero marking to the rocker shaft.

I replaced the complete rocker assembly and fitted a hydraulic grease nipple in place of the brass screw cup. I now only apply grease when the engine is running and hot - in the belief that more grease is likely to find its way to the rockers rather than just oozing out of the biggest gap.

HTH

Regards,
Ian

Reading through the posts as I have written them, it would occur to me that the number of bearing failures could possibly be attributed to an overextended oil change period. I am sure this has occurred to others too but you have been too polite to say so; Brett has diplomatically suggested that a pattern may be emerging........

The first TRB failure (original Indian bearings) happened after around 2000 hours of running. My neighbour (a farmer who has a superb ear for all things mechanical) had shown a visitor around the engine shed when it was running late one Sunday afternoon and commented on how sweet and smooth it sounded. When I went out to the engine shed later in the evening to shut the engine down, there was a rumble / vibration clearly audible and not right. Only about 3 or 4 hours had passed between my neighbour seeing a sweet running engine and me finding a rough unhappy engine. The engine had new oil about 150 hours previously.  Both bearings showed massive localised wear, not just in the fixed portion but the rotating part as well. Both bearings had peeled parts of the bearing surface and distributed it all over the engine. These bearing shards had got into the big end and scored and tapered the journal. The TRBs were replaced with new SKF bearings when reassembled. The crank was reground and new oversized shells used.

The new TRBs lasted for about 5 weeks. An oil change was undertaken at about 200 hours and then a further 200 or so hours before ONE of the new TRBs started to rumble. When I heard the noise, I was convinced that the noise was coming from the generator but disconnection of the generator proved it was, in fact, the engine. The bearing had again distributed shards throughout the engine and again had got into the big end although this time a bit of very fine emery was enough on the journal plus a new set of shells. This time, the TRB wear pattern was also a little weird; the fixed part showed the peeling previously seen but it was out of line with the loading. I put this down to a bad bearing.

The camshaft was replaced because the exhaust cam showed signs of gross pitting. I could not get the retaining collar pin out by drifting it so had to drill it out. It is not easy to drill out the pin in situ and I ended up misaligned with the drill and pin on the far side. I could have taper reamed the hole out and installed a new, larger taper pin but decided to replace the old 12/1 camshaft with a new 6/1 camshaft with heavier weights (as I run the engine at about 580 RPM) to get a better governor response.

The reason for going through this detail now is to show that the failures tended to occur after rather short oil change periods. I have had so many failures that required strip down (and therefore an automatic oil change) that for most of its life, the engine has had quite short oil change periods. It is only now that I am hoping to run 500 hour oil changes.

However, the failures may also be because I may be rather ham-fisted and a poor mechanic; maybe my actions directly caused these failures. I do not know. I just wanted to ensure that my incomplete earlier posts did not automatically lead others to believe that the mechanical failures must be as a result of extended oil change intervals.....

I hope this helps.

Regards,
Ian

Billswan, (at the risk of hijacking the thread – but I think it may be of interest to some) My engine was purchased from Volvox on the basis that it had been totally gone over with all the imperfections smoothed out and the whole thing tuned perfectly. This is supposed to have included a complete strip down for sand clearance and metal surface finishing for exceptionally long life. In return for this "super" engine, I paid double the going rate (around £2000) a few years ago. I guess there is a mug born every minute and I was that mug for that minute.....

When I received the engine, it did not look like an engine that had been lovingly assembled – but what did I know ?

As I inspected the engine and my disappointment grew, I started to become inclined to do a more complete inspect it myself. To be fair, the engine had very little sand except for the roof of the lower oil sump. But I took the view (and still take the view) that sand in the lower sump is not going to find its way out of there and cause a nuisance.

I did find a good number of defects. Volvox said they would make it right but reneged on the deal within days and became un-contactable.

I cannot remember all the things I found wrong now but some of the things were :
Cracked cylinder head nut
30 thou play in the idler gear to pinion interface
Valve timing 1 tooth out
COV blanking plug butchered by the use of an incorrect tool
A degree of scoring on the top bronze shell of the big end bearing – but not enough to warrant replacement there and then
Blocked cross drill hole in the crankshaft (with general sticky crap)
Very sloppy valve guide to valve stem fit

Over the last 3 or 4 years, I have:
Replaced the rocker assembly as the exhaust rocker had completely worn through its bronze bush and into the casting itself.
Initially shimmed the idler pin with home made shim washers to take up the slack – but later replaced with a Xyzer offset idler pin (35 thou)
A total of 3 big end bearing sets including a crank throw regrind.
2 sets of TRBs – I still cannot fathom out what went wrong with these – the replacements have been SKF bearings.
Replaced the valve guides
Replaced the cylinder head due to exhaust gasses getting into the coolant; have never found the crack despite looking very hard.
Added a thermostat
Added a glow plug
Added an external oil filter
Replaced the camshaft and both camshaft bearings
Replaced at least 2 high pressure fuel lines when they sprang a leak
Added a hollow dipper to the big end
Added a manual oil pump operating lever
And I guess a few more things I cannot remember now!

Jens, I forgot to add in the previous post – I lubricate the engine once a week (70 – 90 hours) and this includes greasing the rocker shaft (high pressure grease gun through a nipple I added) and adding oil to the valve spring wells.

I never lubricate the IP tappet (it is usually covered in WVO in some form between liquid and thick rubber).

My JKSon 12/1 does not have the original Lister oil filler hole on the top of the lower sump. I fill the entire sump void with semi or fully synthetic oil right up to the point that the castellated big end nuts just touch the surface of the oil. This is about 5 litres in total. The dip stick has been re-marked for this level. Once a week I check the oil level on the dipstick and if required top up down the dipstick hole. However, over 300 – 500 hours the level hardly changes and generally topping up is not required.

Maybe WVO is getting into the sump oil and maybe it is the WVO making the oil thick – I do not know. I change the oil at 500 hours (if major breakdowns allow) or when the oil continues to cling to the dipstick above its level in the sump. The oil seems to be a pretty good lubricant when rubbed between the finger and thumb even when it is thick and gooey. I believe WVO has good lubricity and when the CS was designed castor oil was the lubricant of choice so it may not be such a bad thing.

I hope this helps.

Regards,
Ian

Jens, Yes, it is an emotional roller-coaster, isn't it? (Maybe this is the definition of an intensive interest hobby?)

Yes, I see just all about the same issues that you see too. And every time a new issue crops up, I sulk; think about packing it all in, and giving up. And I agree that when you look back and add up the total cost – it is MUCH more than you imagined; if you had known it would cost this much and be this much hassle at the start, then you would never have started....

BUT...... I think I have about £10,000 in all invested in my setup so far (it may sound a lot to you, but if you do a full audit, including the concrete, shuttering, plumbing, electrics, spares, oil changes, exhaust, antifreeze, fittings, shed, insulation, etc, etc, etc – it always adds up to more than seems prudent). And with that amount of money invested, and nowhere near payback yet, it seems, somehow, that I am compelled to continue.

I guess the co-gen project saves me around £1000 per year in electricity and gas (maybe as high as £1500) and I have been running for 3 or 4 seasons now – so I guess I have about 3000 – 4000 hours on the 12/1 JKSon. I burn between 1500 – 2500 litres of WVO each season and I have a stock of about 3000 litres at the moment. It seems prudent to at least burn this stock of WVO before I pack it in.....

It feels as if just about every component (other than the flywheels and the crankcase) has broken or worn out and needed replacing (usually when it is -6 degrees C outside and a real pain to work on a cold engine). However, there are very few components that have been replaced that have subsequently broken (although there have been a few). This is the first summer season where I have not removed the head and / or piston and had major surgery work to do – just the (what I hope will become) normal summer servicing (oil, filters, IP pump clean and injector tip replacement and IP roller tappet change out).

Because of major breakdowns every heating season so far, I have not, yet, got into a set oil change routine but my thinking is that I will do 2 changes a year – Christmas and summer. This gives about 500 hours between changes approximately.

As part of the routine oil change, I swap out the IP for a cleaned one, and replace the IP tappet at the same time. The injector is also swapped out for a cleaned one. I have 3 spare IPs and 3 spare injectors. As I can pretty much guarantee that the IP roller tappet roller will have a massive flat (or succession of flats) on it, I have made up a few tens of new mild steel rollers. It is a simple procedure to drift out the hardened pin, remove and discard the old roller and fit a new roller with the original pin in the tappet.

I guess that I have just had to come to terms with the fact that the roller will need replacing every 500 hours or so. I know it should not need replacing but it does. No-one else seems to have this problem but the easy solution for me is to replace the roller each time – it costs less than £1 and takes maybe 5 minutes.

Owning an Indian engine, I think, means that you have to become philosophical. You have to ask yourself, "what is the worst that can happen?" In my case, I guess that I could knacker the camshaft, or break the casting that holds the IP and camshaft bearing, and maybe a few other things too. BUT, (although the age of really low cost Indian parts has now gone) Indian spares are still moderately cheap and it is likely that replacement parts will cost less than £100 and probably less. So it seems like a no-brainer to fix for the cost of £100 and run the engine for the rest of the season where a seasonal saving of £1000 can be had.

Yes, I have learned a lot about these engines and WVO in the last few years. If I knew then what I know now, I would not have started. But I am where I am and I now know that WVO is a sub-optimal fuel that I would never use if it were not free or at least substantially lower cost than diesel. Even WVO is becoming increasingly harder to obtain and I can see a time in the future (hopefully it will be a time that has allowed me to get the majority of payback on my investments) when I can no longer get enough WVO to justify running the engine every day during the winter season.

My thinking is that I will try to retain 1000 litres of WVO for when the world goes crazy and I NEED the engine for heat and power when the utility cannot provide it. I guess at that point, ANY investment costs to date will have been justified.

Jens, I know that when I am in the mind frame that I think you may be in, it can seem easier to walk away rather than carry on. But when it is all back together again, and working hard, sounding smooth and that smile comes back on your face as you hear those clicks, clacks, pings, and thuds, you forget that there was a time when you thought you might pack it all in and NOW, you just have to stand and watch and listen and KNOW that it is saving you money and giving you a little bit more control than your neighbours have.

I may be wrong but it seems to me that with my engine, once the original part has been replaced, it does not seem to go wrong again unless it wears out. If it consistently goes wrong, you should consider it a wear part and expect to replace it. YOU seem to have worked on all the larger parts now – so if your engine behaves anything like mine, you only have to worry about the wear parts in the future.....

Besides, Jens, I do not want you to pack it all in and sell up. From a totally selfish perspective, I enjoy your postings, your questions and comments. You are one of the few posters that I read every post you make because I like your style and usually it is on the topic of engines (which is my interest) rather than something massively off topic and irrelevant to the forum . The forum needs you; hell, I need your comments and posts to help keep MY enthusiasm for these engines running.

Regards,
Ian

Jens - Lister used channelled upper bearing shells for decades without them feeling the need to make changes  - so if you cannot find the plain oversized  shells and hollow dippers just at the moment, there is nothing stopping you using the original thing whilst you carry on sourcing the items you want.

As has already been mentioned, original Lister parts (expensive) are still available and Indian pattern parts also available a little more cheaply.

I believe you have a mill or lathe – so making a non hollow dipper into a hollow one would not be a problem for you. Making one from scratch would not be a problem for you I suspect.

Don't worry about running a standard design upper bearing shell with a hollow dipper – I can confirm that I have been doing this for about 2000 hours now (and the upper bearing shell is an Indian 10 thou oversized part with oil channels) and a home made hollow dipper.

You have nothing to fear.....

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Ian

Maybe it is just the way I am - but I would replace the seals. They are very cheap and standard sizes so are likely to be in stock at any bearing supplier.

The benefit as I see it is that the replacements are likely to be a more resilient material than the Indian original ones and, being new, will be softer and easier to work with (until they have been in use for a time and hardened up).

However, if they cannot be replaced - it is not a big deal to use the original ones.

Seals do not REQUIRE any grease but a small amount on the mating surfaces will help you with refitting and HELP (but not guarantee) to maintain the seal lips to stay in good condition during the assembly procedure.

Regards,
Ian

Hmmmmn.... methinks you are still thinking the engine is for polishing.....

Of course you should do what you feel comfortable with doing and not what others say you should do.

The guys that made the parts for your engine and the guys that assembled it were on peace work and did not bother about how pretty any of it was. The parts were treated with no respect and ended up with burrs and dings all over them – including the parts with critical surface finishes. Despite this the engine has still managed to run OK in the past.

In my opinion, if you want to mark a cast iron or bronze gear with a scriber it will be quite OK. I do recall hearing assumptions that punched marks created stress and premature failure but I also think I recall that this theory was later pulled.

Whenever I have marked something for timing purposes, I have found that I spend a massive amount of time trying to get the timing marks together again on reassembly and finding that they do not coincide perfectly. I waste an inordinate amount of time.

Going back to my farmer friend – he showed me that the best way to time a diesel is to ignore any timing marks already there and just work to basic principles. Assemble the engine and place a piston at TDC. Assemble the cam so that the inlet and exhaust valve are both open at this point; this will become TDC on the non firing stroke of this cylinder. That is it – the other cylinder must follow.

Before I used this basic principles technique, I would use the timing marks that I had made and spend a lot of time, a lot of cussing, and a lot of scraped knuckles and maybe it would be right or maybe it would be one tooth out. The problem with these large slow speed engines is that they run OK with valve and injector timing wildly out. If you know what you are hearing, you can hear that the engine is off tune but it will still perform OK without mishap. But of course, by the time you hear that the timing is not perfect, you have already assembled the engine (and probably polished it a bit too......) and have to take it apart again in order to fix it. OK, on a Lister this is simply opening up the crankcase cover and drift the idler pin out (whilst fishing around in the oil-filled sump to catch the bits you drop), and rotating the cam or crank either way before assembling again. It really is not a big deal and after you have done it once or twice you will not even have to think about it.

I hope this helps.

Regards,
Ian

Whilst I now consider my engine to be a "working" engine rather than something I polish on a Sunday afternoon – there was a time when I tried to have my engine as a working engine but thought of it as a "Sunday afternoon polisher"; something to be proud of.
There came a time when I wanted to remove a gib key for the first time.  Being a reasonably technical person, understanding mechanical principles, and having a pretty good supply of tools, I set about the gib key with a selection of pullers – probably about 4 or 5 of them. No joy. The gib key did not move and I probably destroyed a couple of pullers in the process.
So I purchased a proper gib key puller – designed for the job. It bent the puller and left the gib key in the same place.
So I purchased a 10 inch 3 leg hydraulic puller at quite a high cost (probably £100 for the puller to remove a £3 gib key).  The hydraulic puller was rated at 20 tonne. The gib key stayed in place and one of the puller legs became doglegged and pretty much useless for future use.
Luckily, I live next to a farmer who I get on with pretty well. I told him of my problem and he accused me of being girly and a wimp; he would come across after he had had a brew and sort it out for me.
He appeared with a couple of wedges that looked like they were 200 years old and normally reside at the base of the dung heap. In his other hand he had a heavy hammer with a handle that had seen much better days. I reckon the wedges and hammer could have been purchased for £1 at an auto jumble sale.
When he started to use the hammer on the wedges, the flywheel rang like a bell and my lip started to quiver. He looked up and saw the look on my face and said "Well, you either want the gib key out or you don't – you decide what you want!" I told him to go ahead but my lip was still quivering...
After about a dozen hammer blows the key started to move and about 40 seconds after he started, the key was out. He had managed to get the key out (intact) in less than a minute and at no expenditure. I had prated about with pullers for weeks and spent and messed up about £300 worth of tools.
At another time, I had to replace a TRB. I used what was left of my puller collection without any movement whatsoever. Clearly I had not learned my lesson as I then purchased a huge 60 tonne 3 leg long reach hydraulic puller. The claw of the legs would not fit behind the TRB race and the crank mounted gear wheel and was useless for the task – but it did fit behind the race on the other side. But it still did not move the TRB race.
Again, I saw my farmer friend and once again he questioned my sex and why I was prating about. His bet me he could get the TRB race off in less than 5 minutes and probably less than 1; I took him up on the offer.
He demanded that I take the crank across to his workshop – only about 50 metres but still far enough to have me puffing when I got there and delivered it. He attacked it with an angle grinder for about 10 seconds and then used the same hammer as he had used to get the gib key off and a cold chisel. ONE sharp strike with the chisel and the race simply fell apart and landed at his feet.
He said "There, I have shown you how to do it – now you do the other one". I tried to resist – but he is a farmer and knows how to apply pressure and get his way. My hands were shaking as I used the angle grinder and tickled the TRB race. He mimed a much more aggressive thrusting action at me. I applied a bit more pressure and generated a few more sparks. I also slipped and ground away a bit of the crank in the process but, NOW, I recognise that this is not very important although at the time I was mortified..... Then I tickled the TRB race with the chisel and nothing happened. He again gestured to me a more aggressive approach and I hit the chisel a bit harder. This time the race visibly cracked and one more hit and the race was on the floor. I am sure there was a very wide smile on my face and I felt very proud (and at the same time stupid that I had gouged the crank when I slipped with the angle grinder).
He also showed me the jack trick to remove the stuck flywheel and probably many other tricks that I cannot recall whilst I write this.
I feel very lucky that this farmer has taken the time to show me how to do these things. I would never have been able to do any of these tasks on my own and these tricks do not appear in any manuals or books. I have since removed gib keys, flywheels, and TRBs using the same techniques and without help or recourse to expensive equipment.
In the end, brute force (without ignorance) CAN get the job done and it often costs nothing and is incredibly quick. Brute force is not wrong if correctly applied. BUT you need to get into the mindset that the engine you are working on is not an object of beauty which needs to be polished and cleaned but instead the engine is designed to work and you need to do whatever it is you need to do in order to get it working again.
I hope this helps someone to have the courage and the correct mindset.
Go for it Jens......

Regards,
Ian

Jens - the stuck flywheel is likely congealed veg oil which has managed to form a capilliary film between the wheel and shaft before polymerising as a very strong adhesive. Unlikely that any penetrating oils will work....

If this is the case, use the traditional farmers "in the field" trick. Car jack against the crankshaft end and chains around the flywheel hub. Jack until something gives. Use a very strong jack - not one of the pressed steel jobbies - hydraulic is best. It is likely that you will have to jack the wheel off the shaft as, if it is polymerised WVO, simply getting it to move in the first place will not allow easy removal thereafter.

Once the wheel is off and cleaned up - when you return the wheel to the shaft, fill the hub void with lots of HMP grease. This will not stop the problem next time but will reduce its impact and make the next removal slightly easier.

Hope this helps
Regards,
Ian

Jens - I do not think I agree with you about the annual total strip and rebuild if run on WVO. These engines can take a lot of abuse and still run. You have found that the rings have not stuck, the carbon build up is quite low and the valve train is serviceable (if possibly not optimum).

However, I think the annual service should include an IP pump and an injector strip and clean plus the usual oil and filter changes.

This will be the first summer season that I do not plan to fully strip down my 12/1 - just the stuff listed above - and I run about 1800 - 2000 hours and burn about 2000 - 2500 litres of WVO per heating season. Having said that - this is the first summer season that did not require a major fix of some kind - there are now very few original parts as supplied.

Looking on the bright side - a full engine strip down is now almost second nature and can be completed in little more than 1/2 day!
Regards,
Ian