Micro CoGen.

Quote from: Tom on January 27, 2011, 10:25:18 AM
Spencer, you are running an original CS, many I've seen don't have an air cleaner. Does yours? If so what type are you using? How dusty is the area around your engine?

One of the things that rbodell does it to check and adjust the PH of his oil. Could acid be eroding the cylinder walls and rings? Have you checked your PH if so what is it?

Tom,
Filter fitted even with out one ,a constant sand storm needed to cause this much wear in so few hours
PH is only possible when water is present and motor oil a designed to neutralise acids from the combustion process.
Abrasion from ash not acid fuel which would effect the injection sytem

rbodell has only got 1700 hours only and he ran 50/50 for some of the hours, less WMO the slower the wear


Spencer

Quote from: AdeV on January 27, 2011, 09:38:56 AM

Quote from: spencer1885 on January 27, 2011, 09:33:10 AM

Are you stupid it's all been posted ,read it lazy.

OK, in summary:

YOU say: "All WMO produces abrasive ash which will kill your engine in 2000 hours"
EVERYONE ELSE says "You need to do more testing before you can state that with absolute authority".

It's taken 10 pages to get that far.

Thanks for reading that much, but there is plenty more. 

All WMO with additives will produce ash ,fact
The ash is abrasive ,fact
The ash will wear the top end of the engine in as little as 1700 hours, I am having to repeat my self again.
Ask Billswan what he has found after 1700 hours, which is what I found with my engine at 1800 hours.
You need to start reading the complete posts and then I won't have to keep repeating my self.

Quote from: AdeV on January 27, 2011, 09:12:09 AM

Quote from: spencer1885 on January 27, 2011, 08:59:09 AM

Quote from: AdeV on January 27, 2011, 08:44:10 AM
Could you post a link? I can't see where you referenced it & what made it a failure.

Which forum, I can not remember,do your own home work.

There is an old saying: Put up, or shut up...

YOU raised it, so YOU prove it. Otherwise I will assume that you're talking sh*t and will ignore it.

Quote
I am sure you could being in your work shop playing with that Lister of yours for a couple of more years 

I surely could, and surely will. What's your point?

Are you stupid it's all been posted ,read it lazy.

Quote from: mobile_bob on January 27, 2011, 09:07:20 AM
"FACT"

hmmm, i am beginning to get a clearer picture of you spencer, obviously you are a younger man.

generally as we age and become more experienced we find out just how much we don't know, and the more
we learn the more we find out just how much more there is to learn.

one thing we all learn sooner or later is the world is not a black and white place

there are all sorts of colors and shade in between.

standing on anything and proclaiming it as fact usually end's in first "disappointment", followed by embarassment,  which then leads one
to the inevitable,, "enlightenment".

of all your asserted "facts" i would agree for the most part with the last abrasive ash is bad for an engine, however not all ash is abrasive

ash that is formed by burning some of the additives such as the zinc compounds likely are not abrasive, but likely look like white ash.
some oils are very high in zinc compounds (up to 15%) while others are quite low (~1%)  and the move by the epa has been to remove all zinc compounds anyway. those zinc compounds are used as an extreme pressure additive to aide in parts in the engine that are subject to higher stresses such as cam lobe/lifter faces, brg surfaces etc.  

while burning the zinc compounds might well reform them into compounds left in the ash that is harder and more abrasive, we really don't know that until the ash is properly analyzed.

or we could simply just blindly follow Spencer and eschew wmo and go pay the oil companies for pump diesel.

how about this my friend, what are you going to do when the crapolla hits the air moving device?  what happens when there is no pump diesel to be had, and there is no ready source for veggie oil?  what happens then  are you going to then run waste motor oil if it is available?  

of course you are!

are you going to be kicking yourself in the backside for being so reticent about doing some testing with those of us here that are suggesting we do?

how are you going to feel about using up your lovely lister having to run wmo, while others run twice or more longer just because they decided to do the research and experimentation to learn how to reduce the negative aspects of the wmo?

i can tell you how you will feel,,, you will be very disappointed in yourself for having had such a closed mind.

bob g

To much reading with still no real point.
No one makes abrasive oil or puts abrasive additives in.
They only become abrasive when burnt.

Clear and to the point FACT

Billswan and my self are only two people on this forum with long term use of WMO on a every day use in near neat amounts.
So you think I am talking rubbish fair enough,  is Billswan talking rubbish as well
Lets hear from the other users on this forum in the same boat as Billswan and my self.
Just a small few members with no experience keep posting asking the same questions and disregarding other peoples real life experiences.

I think the saying goes [ you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink ]

Quote from: AdeV on January 27, 2011, 08:44:10 AM
Could you post a link? I can't see where you referenced it & what made it a failure.

Which forum, I can not remember,do your own home work.
I am sure you could being in your work shop playing with that Lister of yours for a couple of more years 

Quote from: AdeV on January 27, 2011, 08:41:12 AM

Quote from: spencer1885 on January 27, 2011, 08:30:51 AM

Now wants your point?

Allow me to modify your post for accuracy:

Put it this way then,every gallon of WMO burnt produces ash.FACT CONJECTURE (some oil may not produce ash)
This amount of ash is the same volume to oil if it's burnt in a boiler/heater or burnt in an engine FACT CONJECTURE (need to run the same oil in both engine & boiler to be sure)
The volume of ash to oil is high FACT CONJECTURE (JohnF saw high ash in his boiler. No guarantee it's high for all WMO.)
The ash is very abrasive FACT CONJECTURE (some ash almost certainly is, but is all ash abrasive? Need to separate ash types & evaluate)
Abrasive ash in a engines cylinder will wear it out FACT (yep, I'll give you that one)

HTH.

Now you are showing that your talking about a subject you have no knowledge of.

Quote from: veggie on January 27, 2011, 08:30:34 AM
It may also be important to note that not everyone is concerned about slightly accelerated wear due to WMO fuels.
For some, this remains a good fuel strategy. Especially for those who don't have access to WVO.
Although WMO may not be the ideal fuel, we still need to discuss the ways and methods for making it a "better" fuel.
Whether that be via a blending process or by engine mods, it is still a good subject for discussion.
Let's try to keep our posts within the spirit of encouraging experimentation and forming solutions rather than discouraging new ideas.

veggie

Who said the wear was slight?

Can you read?

It's already be discussed.

Quote from: AdeV on January 27, 2011, 08:28:07 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYZqAzEuPE8
(apologies, this video can't be run embedded... you'll have to lick the clink...

Runs on 85% WMO / 15% red diesel (gas oil), according to the commentary. Approx 2000 hours between services (assuming 90 days @ 24x7). Obviously his engine lasted more than 1 service interval...

I have already posted about video and talked to him twice.
It was a failure.

Quote from: mobile_bob on January 27, 2011, 08:20:27 AM
Spencer

let me make this short and to the point

no one is arguing the existence of an ash byproduct

what i among others are stating is this

not all oils produce the same amount of ash, nor will all oils produce the same ash compounds
nor will all engine's suffer the same wear issues burning wmo, and

there are significant difference in a waste oil boiler and an engine when it comes to the combustion process

engines run at a higher coolant temperature
engine's run at higher pressures within the combustion chamber
engines have a cyclic pumping nature that helps to move the ash out of the chamber with each stroke
in a positive displacement process rather than a much lower pressure static pressure process.

its apples and oranges in the comparison on so many  levels,  somehow these things seem to go right over your
head.

what can we learn from a boiler that is going to help us with an engine burning wmo?  not much other than we might
be able to test the residual ash for its abrasive characteristics, however

even that is problematic, because how do we know that the same compounds might reform harder or softer due to the very high combustion
pressures of an engine that are not seen in a wmo boiler

give me a break

bob g

Put it this way then,every gallon of WMO burnt produces ash.FACT
This amount of ash is the same volume to oil if it's burnt in a boiler/heater or burnt in an engine FACT
The volume of ash to oil is high FACT
The ash is very abrasive FACT
Abrasive ash in a engines cylinder will wear it out FACT

Now wants your point?

Quote from: JohnF on January 27, 2011, 07:16:06 AM
O.K.;

To try to inject a little empirical comment into this debate:

I have not run a Listeroid for any length of time on WMO - about 30 minutes just to "prove the concept". It worked well but of course I can't comment on wear.  HOWEVER, I do use WMO in my oil boiler that is built specifically for that purpose (it is actually a WMO/WVO designed boiler).  It is tuned to the tits and burns VERY cleanly, no smoke out of the chimney except for water vapour on cold days.  But here is the interesting part - every 30 days or so it begins to act up as if it were starving for oxygen.  Opening up the firebox shows a light (as in weight, not volume) white ash deposit on the boiler tubes to the extent that they are pretty much blocked.  Clean out the tubes and all is well again.

As I said, this is a well-tuned unit that shows no discolouration on a smoke test.  The only conclusion I can draw is that the combustion process results in the ash production and this ash is too heavy to blow through the firebox tubes and up out the chimney.  I think it can be logically assumed that the same thing could happen in a Listeroid and this is what is likely causing the excessive wear that people are seeing.

Spot on John,
Finally some one with experience of how WMO burns and it's deposits.

Spencer

For any one interested in building a WMO or WVO burning heater/boiler or just for more information on the subject google, altfuelfurnace ,a forum that might interest some people on this forum.

Spencer

Quote from: mobile_bob on January 27, 2011, 04:44:37 AM
spencer

this last comment from you is uncalled for,

you ask what others credentials are, yet you provide little to nothing other than "i say so, therefore it is true"

i am beginning to see you has nothing more than a troll, looking to start argument based on sensational and controversial
posts, comments and titling.

nothing more to see here, time to move on.

we have all been patient with you, and extended you the opportunity to support your claims, so far you have not availed yourself
to this and our hospitality.

its time for you to either step up and be constructive or move on.

i would like to leave you with this

over the years i built 100s of 53, 71 and 92 series detroits, 2 stroke engines, many of which used the wrong oils, most of which inhaled, leaked
and in all sorts of ways consumed lot of motor oil.

i have seen dozens of these engine's coming in for overhaul that had white ash residue on the exhaust valve heads and stems, and the piston tops, however the only cylinders and rings that were worn out and not just glazed were engines that had some sort of air cleaner piping, element or other admission of dust/dirt into the air stream.

now why would these enigne's with significant amounts of white ash caked upon the pistons, valves and ports not have had accelerated sleeve and ring wear when you report such with your lister?

the detroit rings are a stainless steel alloy and the liners are induction hardened, and those engine's were not ran any significant amount of time at anything less than 75% loading with stable coolant temperatures in the 180 plus degree F range.

burning motor oil is not dangerous to your engine!

i can state that with equal authority based on my observations and "Facts"  (using your argument)

should you or anyone accept my assertion as gospel?

hell no!

conversely should i or anyone accept your assertion as gospel?

(as if we really need to answer that)

hell no!

i am done with you on this topic, its time to move on.

bob g

bob,
I have not got time to read your post now,but uncalled for and stupid remarks are what BioHazard keeps making.
Direct your comments to all concerned.

Spencer

Quote from: BioHazard on January 27, 2011, 02:50:58 AM
I took apart my little 2 stroke generator today, and I found more carbon than expected at 35 hours in the exhaust port and in the muffler. Bore appears to have some slight wear and I think I need a new head gasket.

I guess that means I should stop burning premium gasoline/2 cycle oil mix so I don't wear out the engine in a few hundred hours. Maybe I should vacuum seal it too so that it doesn't ever rust.

Stop posting stupid comments as you look like a plonker.
Post some thing to add to the subject if you have any thing, or please tell us want your area of expertise is relating to engines.

Quote from: rbodell on January 26, 2011, 04:26:30 PM

Quote from: spencer1885 on January 26, 2011, 08:15:16 AM

Quote from: veggie on January 26, 2011, 08:06:49 AM
"Were is Bodell then,is that the only person you can come up with.
1000 hours and then it's gone very quiet."
1] Where is Bodell ??   Don't ask me.... I'm not his mother.
2] Is that all you can come up with?  People of this planet don't report to me when they run WMO.
  Those two examples are what I found with 2 minutes worth of searching. You could find more if you invest a bit of time and research.

Somebody asked me to stop by and comment here.

I now have somewhere near 1700 hours on my engine running 100%WMO. Still haven't found any carbon deposits on the piston.

I still go by the same process for cleaning the oil as I started with on my website at rbodell.com.

I haven't updated my website because nothing has changed, it just keeps on running and running and running and .....

It runs cleaner on WMO than diesel and has more power. In fact I still have the same goldenrod fuel filter on the engine. If it was going to plug up, it would have before this because I do not use a puel pump so that says a lot for the dieselcraft centrifuge filter I use in my processor too.

There are photos of the processor with explanation on the site as well as http://picasaweb.google.com/rbodell/OilPROCESSOR# it the same aS a biodiesel processor as well as the same process exceept I don't add anything to the oil.

As for not finding too many peole who have run WMO, I couldn't find much either so I did a huge anount of research and managed to track bdown a few people who have run WMO in diesels for many years. One fellow has been running a truck on it for over 10 years.I am looking for a diesel pickup to run on it myself. Nothing like free fuel.

I would be glad to help anybody with any information I can, but most everything is on my website. There is contact info on the website, but if it is something new I will probably answer through this website. I haven't visited back here much lately, so if you post something specifically for me here, drop me an email and let me know it is there. rbodell AT gmail.

no I am not an engineer, scientist or even a mechanic. I just did a lot of research bthat told me I had nothing to fear with running this engine on WMO, so I invested $3,000 in the engine and gen head and have had no regrets since. Like I said, I am looking for a truck to run on WMO now.

If anybody living around the weatherford texas area wants to come by and check it out, I would be glad to show you around.

If you have read the posts you would have seen that the wear will all ready be their at 1800 hours, if he pulls the block and checks.
Only 1700 hours so far.
I have posted ,I can't remember which forum now at 1800 hours when the head gasket blow I decided to decoke it at the same time.
I posted it was real clean with very little to no deposit's in the engine, it's not a coking problem but a abrasive problem.


3000 hours per year is what I need minimum.